"Those that left were not yet, if ever, disciples of Jesus"
Unless, of course, you read and believe the words of the Bible.
John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."
Do you even read the Scripture? How could you miss this?
It is interesting that Martin Luther called those who could not discern the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist DEVILS. And this verse is 6:66. You share beliefs with some interesting company - devils and those that abandoned Christ.
"Who, but the devil, hath granted such a license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposeth upon us by these fanatical men .... Not one of the Fathers, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present. Surely it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men not be deceived. Certainly in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous."
Martin Luther, tom. vii. Edit. Wittemb. p. 391 (from post 86)
"Those that left were not yet, if ever, disciples of Jesus"
Unless, of course, you read and believe the words of the Bible.John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him."Okay ... I guess that I thinking 'true' disciple, ... as opposed to simply a follower.
When I speak of a 'true disciple', ... I am referring to whatever it is that distinguished those that stayed with Jesus ... from those that left.
I would propose that the quality which made for the difference is 'faith' (in Jesus), ... which expresses itself in a followship of Jesus, ... whether you understand where He's going or not.
Remember, .... Judas too was 'called' a disciple, ... but Jesus said that He knew that he (Judas) was a devil from the beginning.
It is interesting that Martin Luther called those who could not discern the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist DEVILS. And this verse is 6:66. You share beliefs with some interesting company - devils and those that abandoned Christ.
And you now begin to show your inconsistency.
I thought that your claim was that those that left Jesus believed that He was speaking of offering to them (to consume) His physical flesh and blood.
That is exactly what you believe, ... not I.
I would take more care in presenting my ad hominems.
And though I do not base my christian belief upon Luther (he was a fallible believer ... as am I), ... I would claim to discern the real presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper. For indeed I do ...
Jesus said that where two or more are gathered in His Name, ... He is there present.
As for the bread and wine, I believe that it is a spiritual representation of His body and blood. I have no problem in disagreeing with Luther ... or any other fallible creature ... on that issue.