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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Agrarian; The_Reader_David
Ah, the "Treasury of Merit", or so I remember it being called from my elementary school days. Isn't that the doctrine that the excess merits of Christ and the saints have been given over to the Pope to dispense as he sees fit? Orthodoxy doesn't speak of this at all, at least not in my experience.

I read +Cyprian from a different pov and what I saw was a sort of early discussion of the ongoing "tension" in the Church between akrivia and economia. In many senses, and in more modern parlance, it is like the martyrs wished as spiritual fathers to lessen the penance for the sins of their spiritual children but were applying to the bishop for a grant of economia from what may have been some locally prescribed penance periods. Maybe one could call the application of economia in these situations a sort of indulgence, but in common understanding among Orthodox, when a Latin speaks of indulgences, he is speaking of time off in Purgatory. Are we incorrect in this?
417 posted on 06/08/2005 7:11:34 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; Agrarian; The_Reader_David
I read +Cyprian from a different pov and what I saw was a sort of early discussion of the ongoing "tension" in the Church between akrivia and economia. In many senses, and in more modern parlance, it is like the martyrs wished as spiritual fathers to lessen the penance for the sins of their spiritual children but were applying to the bishop for a grant of economia from what may have been some locally prescribed penance periods.

What you describe in bold above is precisely what we call an indulgence.

but in common understanding among Orthodox, when a Latin speaks of indulgences, he is speaking of time off in Purgatory. Are we incorrect in this?

Yes. Most people I know who try to gain indulgences do so for themselves or their friends and family still living. Generally, indulgences are given for prayers and pilgrimages, so it is an appllication of excess merit to spiritual acts for the benefit of the person performing the act that they might dispose of it as they please.

For example, say my mother is angry with me. I might pray certain prayers for her that she might overcome her anger that have indulgences attached to them, and then apply any indulgence won towards the Lord forgiving the punishment due her anger.

If people are thinking of purgatory in all this gaining of indulgences, it is with a view to their own spiritual growth and perfection so that they and their living friends and family do not need to be detained there.

The aim of indulgences is primarily spiritual perfection here on earth, not in the next life.

418 posted on 06/08/2005 9:15:33 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Kolokotronis; Agrarian; The_Reader_David

This common example is perhaps the simplest way of thinking about it. Read through it. Then read through it again and think of yourself as the sinner, the father as God the Father, your brother as Christ, and your friend as a fellow Christian.

Sin is like hitting a baseball through your father's window. You can run and ask forgiveness of your father for your folly, and if he is a good father, he will forgive you.

But there is still a broken window on your father's house, and by strict rights, you ought to repair it, having broken it.

Now, your father might be generous and say he will take care of it himself, or have your especially generous older brother take care of it for you. Your father might also ask that you repair it, since this is the fifth window you've broken in two months of playing baseball in the backyard, and didn't he ask you not to play baseball back there anymore after the first broken window?

Should this latter situation be the case, you might pay and repair it yourself, or perhaps your friend or generous older brother might give you the money to repair it and hire a repairman.

Whatever happens, one thing is certain - your father doesn't want to live in a house with broken windows.

An indulgence is a payment of the penance required for sin, and the payment comes from Christ and the Saints in view of your own contrition and attempts to make up for what you have done. An indulgence can only be gained by one who is contrite for and detesting of their own sins for which they are gaining the indulgence through the spiritual act. If you are not contrite, you are hardly deserving of benevolence on the part of Christ and the Saints. On the contrary, you need that much more penance. If you are contrite, the Church feels you deserve a speeding up of the fullness of the mercy of God by applying extra merit, so to speak, to the meritorious penances that you perform to gain the indulgence.

This is why the Church does not (and cannot) merely hand out indulgences for nothing, but demands that they be connected to both outward acts of faith, and inward contrition for sin.

There is a story I was told about this that is directly related to the concept of the spiritual acts needed to gain indulgences forgiving or shortening penances.

A man goes into a confessional for the first time in 20 years. He has a long list of grave sins to confess, and does so with much sincereity and contrition over the lamentable life he had been leading. The priest listens very patiently, gives him a penance of 10 Our Fatherss and 10 Hail Mary's, and starts to absolve him. The man interjects: "But Father, I have been such a wretched sinner for 20 years - Surely I deserve a greater penance!" The priest thinks this over and decides the man should only say 5 Our Father's and 5 Hail Mary's. The man can hardly believe it. He protests again that he has been a worthless sinner who has greatly offended God, and begins to weep as he again recounts some of his worst acts, and how unworthy of mercy he is. The priest thinks this over again, and says to him, "Okay, okay. Your penance is 1 Our Father and 1 Hail Mary. No I absolve your from your sins, etc. Go in peace my child, your tears of contrition and protests of unworthiness have healed your soul and pleased God far more than any penance I could give you to perform."


419 posted on 06/08/2005 9:38:44 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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