Pope (Benedict XVI) pledges to end Orthodox Rift

BARI, Italy (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI visited the eastern port of Bari on his first papal trip Sunday and pledged to make healing the 1,000-year-old rift with the Orthodox church a "fundamental" commitment of his papacy.

Benedict made the pledge in a city closely tied to the Orthodox church. Bari, on Italy's Adriatic coast, is considered a "bridge" between East and West and is home to the relics of St. Nicholas of Myra, a 4th-Century saint who is one of the most popular in both the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.

Benedict referred to Bari as a "land of meeting and dialogue" with the Orthodox in his homily at a Mass that closed a national religious conference. It was his first pilgrimage outside Rome since being elected the 265th leader of the Roman Catholic Church on April 19.

it would seem that at least the experience of these must be temporal

As I stated.

otherwise indulgences would not have been granted for X number of days or years for various prayers and good works by the Catholic church.

The days of indulgences refer to the remission of so many days of the former canonical penance imposed by the Church under the stern older scheme of the Sacrament of Penance. A plenary indulgence then is the total remission of all the canonical penance still awaiting satisfaction.

The notion of a set time in purgatory comes from the fact the people would die without having completed the course of their canonical penance, but having made a good confession. The penance would then have to be performed in purgatory to complete the perfection of the sinner.

I would add parenthetically that it is fully possible to be in the Church and to hold the faith of the Church, and even to be saints, and yet hold certain views and opinions that are wrong. St. Augustine certainly falls into this category. We have our own saints who are great fathers, but who held certain views that were not accepted by the Church. The fact that the Orthodox Church believes that certain Latin teachings are simply wrong and not a part of the consensus patrum does not at all imply that we would believe that the pre-Schism western writers who seem to have held those views were not saints, let alone that they were outside the Church.

One must be careful with this line of reasoning. Sometimes, St. Augustine went out on a limb by himself. Other times, St. Augustine is in the long line of Latin Tradition from Tertullian, Sts. Cyprian and Cornielius, Sts. Jerome and Ambrose, Sts. Hilary and Leo the Great, Sts. Fulgentius, Bede, and Gregory the Great, which the saw codifcation by the Schoolmen and Tridentine theologians.

It would not be anything of concern if one father was in error on one issue. It would be quite inconceivable to a Catholic for the entire Latin theological tradition to be in error.

The pious tradition of the Orthodox Church indicates that after she died

Hermann clearly indicated in previous posts that the Roman Catholic Church holds that belief as well, or at least it did until recently (now the Church is "silent" on the issue of her death).

But he does not explain why she died if she was conceived free of ancestral sin, for (ancestral) sin came into the world through one man and through (ancestral) sin death.

I would add parenthetically that it is fully possible to be in the Church and to hold the faith of the Church, and even to be saints, and yet hold certain views and opinions that are wrong

Well, the Church is made up of sinners, Agrarian! We all worship God in imperfect knowledge.

As to the prayers for the departed -- now that is a really interesting topic. The Orthodox Church very clearly states that they are inteded as expression of gratitude to God.

"The Jews of the Old Testament wept for Jacob and for Moses for forty days. Today, however, during the funeral of the faithful, the Church raises hymns and prayers and psalms. We glorify and thank God, because “He crowned the departing,” because “He relieved the pains,” because “He expelled the fear,” and has the deceased believer near Him. This is why the hymns and psalms reveal that in the event of death there is pleasure and joy ... “Is any cheerful? Let him sing praises” (James 5:13). This is why we sing psalms over the dead—psalms which move us to have courage and not to despair over the death of our brother.” (St. John Chrysostom, On the Holy Martyrs Bernice and Prosdoke the Virgins and their Mother Domnina)

From the time of falling asleep until the Last Judgment, we really aren't exactly sure what happens

+Chrysostom seems to know very well what happnes to those who are asleep in the Lord. But, as you go through the actual text of Orthodox funerals and memorials, it is clear that God is beseeched, as Hermann pointed out, with petitions for the departed's forgiveness of sins.

Remember, the Orthodox do not believe in the Purgatory. We believe that we are judged by God at the moment of death and that this (particular) judgment will not be different in essence from the Final Judgment. The departed souls foretastes eternal bliss or eternal darkness.

The Church is "silent," as our Latin brethren say, on the issue of intercession of the saints, for there is no scriptural basis for it. We believe, however, that prayers cannot hurt and that saints, who are alive, pray for us as they prayed for us on earth. However, one must admit that this is prety weak.

If we truly believe that our prayers can help the departed, then we certainly do not believe that they are saved, forgiven and have a foretaste of the bliss that is to come. If that is what we believe, as our prayers seem to suggest, then we essentially believe in the Purgatory but do not wish to admit it! For, if God forgives us our repented sin, they are either erased or they are not.

Thus, it seems to me, that our prayers beseeching God to forgive the departed express doubt in our own proclamation that the deceased believer is "near Him," that he is without pain and fear. For is someone is tormented for his own sins, those sins have not been forgiven and take away, and he or she is not, as +Chrysostom says, "without pain."

But he does not explain why she died if she was conceived free of ancestral sin, for (ancestral) sin came into the world through one man and through (ancestral) sin death.

Okay, let me try again. When we say Blessed Mary was conceived free of Original Sin, we mean that her soul, at the moment of its animation, was joined to her body already filled with the life of God. Thus, she did not share with us the condition of ever being in league with the devil and against God from lacking a participation in the life of grace.

Her body, however, was a body of sin and death from the same nature as Adam corrupted for all his descendants, since she was conceived and born in the normal way from normal parents.

Blessed Mary came forth able to suffer infirmities in the flesh and consigned to die, BUT, she was already filled with the Holy Ghost, and filled to such a degree that God enabled her to quell the movements of concupiscence so that she did not suffer from the disordered and self-centered desires of the flesh that lead to sin - the grace she was born with was sufficient to place the flesh in proper subservience to the spirit from her infancy, rather than only after much advanced spiritual trial, as with the Saints.

This is why I believe eastern Fathers such as St. Gregory Palamas claimed that the Virgin practiced hesychasm in her youth in the Temple - he meant that she already from that time was glorified and in intimate communion with God, and so could no longer sin - "Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil." (1 St. John 3.9-10). This is a fulfillment of the prophecy of Genesis: "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for his heel." (Genesis 3.15). If Mary was at some point without grace, she was not at enmity with the Devil, but with God.

Lastly, the belief that the Virgin suffered no pain in childbirth stems from her privilege of perpetual virginity, not from the Immaculate Conception, or some imagined freedom from pain and suffering and death. Christ, unlike any other human, because He is God, was able to be born without disturbing His Mother with the pangs of childbirth, therefore, out of compassion to her, He did so.

The recent novelty of Mary not dying is a neo-scholastic invention of vain human reasoning with no foundation whatsoever in tradition. It is truly a shame IMHO that Pius XII contaminated the declaration on the Assumption with this.

Remember, the Orthodox do not believe in the Purgatory. We believe that we are judged by God at the moment of death and that this (particular) judgment will not be different in essence from the Final Judgment. The departed souls foretastes eternal bliss or eternal darkness.

Well, I think this is a confusion of our belief. Consignment to purgatory, so to speak, is nothing other than a declaration that a soul is saved, but still requires a completion of its spiritual perfection to clear away minor faults left undone on earth. It does not transfer a sinner from judgement to eternal life after death.

Looking over our Roman Liturgy, you are correct that the greatest beseeching for the salvation of the departed soul is in the funeral liturgy itself for us too, while in memorial masses, that vast majority of the prayers simply ask for the forgiveness of sins and faults, presuming the salvation to already be obtained, and eneding only perfection.

I think we can accept the word "foretaste" provided that it is clear that the soul actually experiences paradise (or damnation), although in a way that will be greatly heightened when it is reunited to the body. After all, Jesus promised St. Dismas "Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise." (St. Luke 23.43) And the rich man "I am tormented in this flame" (St. Luke 16.24).

The Church is "silent," as our Latin brethren say, on the issue of intercession of the saints, for there is no scriptural basis for it.

Careful!

"Then after he had encouraged them, he shewed withal the falsehood of the Gentiles, and their breach of oaths. So he armed every one of them, not with defence of shield and spear, but with very good speeches, and exhortations, and told them a dream worthy to be believed, whereby he rejoiced them all. Now the vision was in this manner. Onias, who had been high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in his looks, gentle in his manners, and graceful in speech, and who from a child was exercised in virtues holding up his hands, prayed for all the people of the Jews: After this there appeared also another man, admirable for age, and glory, and environed with great beauty and majesty: Then Onias answering, said: This is a lover of his brethren, and of the people of Israel: this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias, the prophet of God. Whereupon Jeremias stretched forth his right hand, and gave to Judas a sword of gold, saying: Take this holy sword, a gift from God, wherewith thou shalt overthrow the adversaries of my people Israel." (2 Maccabees 15.10-16)

For, if God forgives us our repented sin, they are either erased or they are not.

God forgives minor sins and faults, not mortal sins. He also accepts our completion of the canonical penance after death, should we die not having done so. It is the difference between the sins that can be forgiven by praying in the Our Father "forgive us our sins" and those sins which can only be forgiven by confession.

Okay, let me try again. When we say Blessed Mary was conceived free of Original Sin, we mean that her soul, at the moment of its animation, was joined to her body already filled with the life of God

Thank you Hermann. Your efforts are well appreciated. What this does not explain, however, is how can we look up to her sainthood as our model and not something that she achieved with abundance of God's help that the rest of us don't have?

Consignment to purgatory, so to speak, is nothing other than a declaration that a soul is saved, but still requires a completion of its spiritual perfection

How can a soul perfect itself after death? Perfection of the soul is what we call theosis. It is a lifestyle that slowly defeats our fallen nature and converts us into the likeness of Christ through God's help (answering our prayers), through the Church's help (Sacraments and prayers), and through our own desire. And what to make of St. John Chrysostom's words that the departed is "near Him" and "without pain" if we continue to long for God after death?

this is he that prayeth much for the people, and for all the holy city, Jeremias, the prophet of God

For the living. It is one thing to ask saints to pray for us on earth, to strengthen our own prayers, but the Church says nothing of how the prayers help those who have already been judged after death -- which brings us back to the perfection of the soul issue and the enigma of just what this is, how is it accomplished, and why.

As far as I remember, there is only one sin that cannot be forgiven of a believer, and that has to do with the Holy Ghost. So, if God forgives us our sins at the moment of death, they are forgiven. God does not give us partial absolution, leaving us in torment over the rest. Remember that sin is separation from God -- when we choose and, worse, worship material things. When we are dead, the separation of the unrepentant sinner from God remains but there is nothing to attach itself to -- a sort of a "solitary confinement for ages." There is nothing to choose any more.

Since we are all to varying degrees sinners, we are all going to need 'perfection' after death -- which is achieved by God's mercy, as I understand it, and not of our own doing. If God perfects our souls out of His infinite mercy, then what is left for us and the saints to pray for, but saying praise and thanks?

The Orthodox Church very clearly states that they are inteded as expression of gratitude to God.

Yet Chrysostom also says:

Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf. ... Not in vain did the Apostles order that remembrance should be made of the dead in the dreadful Mysteries. They know that great gain resulteth to them, great benefit; for when the whole people stands with uplifted hands, a priestly assembly, and that awful Sacrifice lies displayed, how shall we not prevail with God by our entreaties for them? And this we do for those who have departed in faith, whilst the catechumens are not thought worthy even of this consolation, but are deprived of all means of help save one. And what is this? We may give to the poor on their behalf. This deed in a certain way refreshes them. For God wills that we should be mutually assisted; else why hath He ordered us to pray for peace and the good estate of the world? why on behalf of all men? since in this number are included robbers, violaters of tombs, thieves, men laden with untold crimes; and yet we pray on behalf of all; perchance they may turn. (Third Homily on Philippians)

But grant that he departed with sin upon him, even on this account one ought to rejoice, that he was stopped short in his sins and added not to his iniquity; and help him as far as possible, not by tears, but by prayers and supplications and alms and offerings. For not unmeaningly have these things been devised, nor do we in vain make mention of the departed in the course of the divine mysteries, and approach God in their behalf, beseeching the Lamb Who is before us, Who taketh away the sin of the world;-not in vain, but that some refreshment may thereby ensue to them. Not in vain cloth he that standeth by the altar cry out when the tremendous mysteriesare celebrated, "For all that have fallen asleep in Christ, and for those who perform commemorations in their behalf." For if there were no commemorations for them, these things would not have been spoken: since our service is not a mere stage show, God forbid! yea, it is by the ordinance of the Spirit that these things are done.
Let us then give them aid and perform commemoration for them. For if the children of Job were purged by the sacrifice of their father, why dost thou doubt that when we too offer for the departed, some consolation arises to them? since God is wont to grant the petitions of those who ask for others. And this Paul signified saying, "that in a manifold Person your gift towards us bestowed by many may be acknowledged with thanksgiving on your behalf." (2 Cor. 1:11) Let us not then be weary in giving aid to the departed, both by offering on their behalf and obtaining prayers for them: for the common Expiation of the world is even before us. Therefore with boldness do we then intreat for the whole world, and name their names with those of martyrs, of confessors, of priests. For in truth one body are we all, though some members are more glorious than others; and it is possible from every source to gather pardon for them, from our prayers, from our gifts in their behalf, from those whose names are named with theirs. Why therefore dost thou grieve? Why mourn, when it is in thy power to gather so much pardon for the departed? (Forty-First Homily on First Corinthians)

I think you might do well to read Fr. Seraphim Rose's The Soul After Death

I have read parts of it and I find his "arguments" anecdotal rather than convincing. Such as such has a vision., and the vision told him...is not theology.

The Church simply has nothing to offer to show that something can be done for the soul that has been saved but not perfected by God! Orthodox Catechism (Rev. George Mastrantonis, 1969, Logos) says this:

not clearly stated in Scripture

In both cases the issue is of the betterment of the living, not the dead. The idea for the dead may come from the Jewish practice of "sin offerings" (but let's not forget that their idea of salvation is different).

Maccabees 12:43b-45, Septuagint, identifies prayers for the dead as "sin offerings" made for the "atonement for the dead, so that they might be set free from their sin."

Catechism also continues by saying that "Scripture does not indicate clearly the practice of offering prayers for departed souls. (p.157) There is one references in Zachariah 1:12-13 where an angel asks God "how long wilt though be without mercy..." -- a strange reference, indeed, suggesting that God is without mercy (but we will let that one go for no).

Furthermore, the Catechism says:

prayers of gratitude

On the bottom of the same page, "As faith and prayers are indispensable for the living, prayers of the Church could be beneficial to departed souls. This practice of praying to God for the dead in commemorations is consistent with the divine justice and satisfaction, although the human mind cannot comprehend how these prayers help." (pp. 158-159)

Catechism also continues by saying that "Scripture does not indicate clearly the practice of offering prayers for departed souls. (p.157) ... As faith and prayers are indispensable for the living, prayers of the Church could be beneficial to departed souls.

This is an astonishing lack of confidence. We are explicitly assured in Holy Scripture that such prayers are holy and beneficial, and ought to be done.

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:46)

At any rate, I would think that the Pan-Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem in 1672 would hold more authority than a catechism:

And the one having received the dignity of the Priesthood from the Bishop, can only perform Holy Baptism, and Prayer-oil, minister sacrificially the unbloody Sacrifice, and impart to the people the All-holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, anoint the baptised with the Holy Myron [Chrism], crown the Faithful legally marrying, pray for the sick, and that all men may be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, {cf. 1 Timothy 2:4} and especially for the remission and forgiveness of the sins of the Faithful, living and dead. ... Further, that it is a true and propitiatory Sacrifice offered for all Orthodox, living and dead; and for the benefit of all, as is set forth expressly in the prayers of the Mystery delivered to the Church by the Apostles, in accordance with the command they received of the Lord. ... And such as though envolved in mortal sins have not departed in despair, but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance — by pouring forth tears, forsooth, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in fine by shewing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbour, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing in the highest degree; which each offereth particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offereth daily for all alike; it being, of course, understood that we know not the time of their release.

It sure looks to me like that catechism is in direct opposition to the Council's view, and in fact goes so far as to call it "superfluous and unfounded"!

What this does not explain, however, is how can we look up to her sainthood as our model and not something that she achieved with abundance of God's help that the rest of us don't have?

On the one level, I'd ask in return how we are supposed to imitate Christ in his earthly life, we not being God.

On another level, I'd point out that we can, from this point forward, choose to live a life as holy as Blessed Mary did for her whole life, if we would but will it. The grace of God is there for us to never again fall into sin. It is in this sense that Blessed Mary is a direct role model for us. St. Augustine stated: "It depends on you to be elect" (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); "Who are the elect? You, if you wish it" (In Ps. Lxxiii, n. 5).

The main difference between the Virgin and us is that we have misspent the previous portion of our lives, up until now, since I am not aware of any of us being reknowned as living saints, while she did not. But we can now live a life as holy as she did from our age to her death, if we would but will it, and then follow through on that will. An ancient Roman Collect reads:

"Direct, we beg you, O Lord, our actions by your holy inspirations, and carry them on by your gracious assistance, that every prayer and work of ours may begin always with you, and through you be happily ended."

If we would only try to actually put that prayer into effect in our life, we would lead a life in imitation of St. Mary. God's grace is at the ready for us to do so.

I'll try to answer your other points later.

Such as such has a vision., and the vision told him...is not theology.

It is not book theology, but it is lived theology.

Theology is the knowledge of God = Theos-logia.

If a man has a true vision of supernatural things, he will have a far greater understanding of the Lord than anything a book could ever impart. One need look no further than St. Paul. St. Paul met Christ on the road to Damascus in a startling vision of the Lord of Glory, and it so transformed him that upon his Baptism and the healing of his temporary blindness:

"Immediately he preached Jesus in the synagogues, that he is the son of God. And all that heard him were astonished and said: Is not this he who persecuted in Jerusalem those that called upon this name and came hither for that intent, that he might carry them bound to the chief priests? But Saul increased much more in strength and confounded the Jews who dwelt at Damascus, affirming that this is the Christ." (Acts 9.20-22)

This is doubly so for one who is glorified, and in communion with God through continuous prayer.
St. Thomas Aquinas, about 4/5ths of the way through writing his Summa, was granted a vision of God so startling and complete while he said Mass on the feast of St. Nicholas in 1273 that when it was over, he ended all his writing, saying: "The end of my labors is come. All that I have written seems to me so much straw after the things that have been revealed to me." This seems to me the height of theology - the realization that all our categorizations and anaolgies ultimately are so utterly lacking in describing the true reality of God, heaven, the Sacraments, etc.

I think that one thing to bear in mind that for righteous and sinner alike, the state of the soul after death is unnatural for all, since the soul is not meant to be without the body. Our prayers for the departed are particularly intense in the first several days after death, in part because the traditions of the Church tell us that the soul is particularly sorrowful at being unnaturally parted from the body.

I would also add to TRD's recommendation of Fr. Seraphim's book yet another standard work: "The Mystery of Death," written by the Greek theologian Nikolaos P. Vassiliadis, and published by the Orthodox Brotherhood of Theologians "O Sotir."

This is a rather encyclopedic work that is chock-full of Scriptural and patristic citations. It has a little different flavor than does Fr. Seraphim's work, since it is written out of the Greek monastic tradition. Both are very worth reading, and both are solidly in the Orthodox patristic tradition.

The section on prayers for the dead, commemorating the dead at the Liturgy, and memorial services has abundant patristic citations regarding why we do this.

One interesting quotation from St. Gregory of Nyssa:

Nothing that is unreasonable and unprofitable has been handed down by the disciples and preachers of christ and kept everywhere in the Church of God. A thing that is in every way beneficial and pleasing to God is of course the commemoration in the divine services of those who have fallen asleep in true faith.

From St. John Chrysostom:

Those who depart in sin to where it is not possible to receive cleansing, are not completely without hope... Let us help them according to our ability; let us provide for them some assistance, however small, that will be of some help to them. How and in what way? By praying for them, and by encouraging others to pray for them too.

St. Athanasius says that the souls receive benefit, but "as only our God who has authority over the living and the dead knows and ordains."

The author summarizes by saying:

While the Mother Church prays also for sinners, it does not teach nor promise that those who departed unrepentant will receive forgiveness of sins. Also, the Fathers, who are made wise by God and who advise us to pray for the sinners, do not support the view that with these prayers and memorials will we absolve them from the sufferings of Hades or remove them from the place of punishment to Paradise. They only note that those who depart from this life with their sins, receive through all of these prayers a certain consolation..."

Regarding purgatory, Vassiliadis' comments boil down to these points:

1. The fires of purgatory happen as a result of penances not being completed, and in the Latin language, of full atonement not having been made for sins. The implication could be drawn that a full atonement has not been made by the redemptive work of Christ.

2. It means that when we confess our sins and receive Christ's absolution, we aren't really forgiven and it isn't finished until the penance is made. By contrast, any discipline placed on one by a father-confessor in the Orthodox tradition are pedagogical means and therapeutic medicines which the priest as a compassionate father and experienced spiritual physician, imposes, in order to help the penitent become fruitful in works worthy of his repentance.

3. The punishing fires of purgatory affect only the soul, and not "the body which was used as an instrument for committing the sin", which remains unpunished. By Orthodox lights, a person neither experiences full bliss nor full torment until the soul is reunited with the body at the Last Judgment after the resurrection.

In summary, the heart of at least some Orthodox objections to the idea of purgatory is portraying this as punishment that needs to be completed, that involves suffering and pain. Its being linked to uncompleted penances that need to be "paid up" and completed is outside the pale of Orthodox thought. I would add that according to this doctrine, it would seem that once the purgatorial time is completed, whether by the passage of time, or by the application of a plenary indulgence, there is really no further benefit to praying for the departed. By contrast, the Orthodox perspective is that the dead continue to benefit, in an undefined and unguaranteed way, from our prayers until the time of the Last Judgment.

This is yet another example of a place where the Orthodox Church finds that in the course of attempting to over-define a doctrine, the point to the traditional teachings and practices can actually be lost.

This is an astonishing lack of confidence. We are explicitly assured in Holy Scripture that such prayers are holy and beneficial, and ought to be done

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Maccabees 12:46)

The writer of Maccabees did not follow Jesus; we do. He may have been guided to Truth, but dimly. As a Jew, he believed that "burnt offerings" atoned for our sins, dead or alive; we don't.

Greek Orthodox Catechism (Canda) seems to express the same sentiment as the other one I quoted. Among the reasons people fear death, it says, is that:

after death repentance for salvation no longer exists

Note, there is no repentence after death. What happens after the soul parts the body? The Scripture is clear: "It is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes the judgement"(Hebrews 9:27)." The soul is judged.

Now, if there is no more repenetence and the judgment is made, what is there about the departed that can be changed? Neither their sin can be repented, nor can God's judgment be changed.

Our Lord, through the Scriputre, teaches that "he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live"(John, 11:25)"

Thus, the circle closes: the belivers who repeneted are forgiven; the sinners who didn't are not, not because God doesn't want to, but because we don't let Him. Neither can our prayers make the unrepenent repent, nor can our prayers change what God had already judged.

The writer of Maccabees did not follow Jesus

There is a total identity of faith between the prophets and saints of the Old Covenant, and the same in the New. The only difference is the first lived in anticipation, why we live in realization. If the Jews did not follow Jesus, so many could hardly have been looking for the consolation of Israel at the time of His birth, as we know they were.

If the Holy Maccebees did not follow Jesus, we could hardly have a feast in their honor on August 1.

a Jew, he believed that "burnt offerings" atoned for our sins, dead or alive

No, as a true believer, he believed that God had ordained them as an outward ritual to express inner contrition over sin. Where the Prophets rejected "sacrifices and sin offerings" they were doing so where man had made them an empty formality, not because Jews were not really bound to fulfill the law. Jesus Himself fulfilled the law and slaughtered many sheep for the Passover and other feasts, to say nothing of the sin offerings for His Most Holy Mother at the Presentation, etc.

Thus, the circle closes: the belivers who repeneted are forgiven; the sinners who didn't are not

This seems to me to reject the distinction between serious or mortal sins, and personal faults or venial sins. We believe God cleanses us of our minor personal faults still remaining at death after death so that we might be without spot or blemish, since few of us are perfected entirely here on earth. But those who die in actual mortal sin are condemned and without hope.

The implication could be drawn that a full atonement has not been made by the redemptive work of Christ.

Whatever implication you are drawing could not be much different than what St. Paul said "I Paul am made a minister, who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" (Collasians 1.23-24)

What is lacking in the atonement is our participation in it as imitators of Christ. Canonical penances are an official form to cause our participation to further our salvation.

It means that when we confess our sins and receive Christ's absolution, we aren't really forgiven and it isn't finished until the penance is made. By contrast, any discipline placed on one by a father-confessor in the Orthodox tradition are pedagogical means and therapeutic medicines which the priest as a compassionate father and experienced spiritual physician, imposes, in order to help the penitent become fruitful in works worthy of his repentance.

The showing of fruits of repentance is the outward sign that the inward confession was sincere. And while the sins are forgiven at absolution, we are not brought back towards perfection where we were before sinning until we do the penances.

I have no comments to this other than to again quote St. Mark of Ephesus in his Homily Against the Purgatorial Fires:

"But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying with themselves certain faults, whether small ones over which they have not repented at all, or great ones for which — even though have repented over them — they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins, but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definitive punishment in some place (for this, as we have said, has not at all been handed down to us). But some must be cleansed in the very departure from the body (as St. Gregory the Dialogist literally shows); while others must be cleansed after the departure from the body, before they come to worship God and are honored with the lot of the blessed, or — if their sins were more serious and bind them for a longer duration — they are kept in hell, but not in order to remain forever in fire and torment, but as it were in prison and confinement under guard."

If you can accept this as an accurate statement of Orthodox belief, I can assure you I and other Catholics are 100% in agreement with the thoughts it expresses as being common to our faith. If this is not an example of Orthodoxy, I must wonder at how St. Mark is accounted one of the greastest of Fathers in the past 1200 years by your commuinion.

So, we continue to live with the propenxity to sin, because our nature is fallen.

We live with the propensity to sin, because we do not strive hard enough for the perfection God wishes for us. Many of the saints had the propensity taken away from them after years spent in prayer and fasting. St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, related to Brother Reginald at his death that early after entering the Dominicans, and after much prayer, two angels had visited him and encircled him with a spiritual girdle to guard his chastity in answer to his prayers to be protected from impurity, and that after that time, he never again suffered from motions of his mind and body tempting him against Holy Purity.

This is where our theologies diverge, I believe, the Orthodox teaching that our nature has changed with the Fall, the Latins that our nature has become "tainted" but remians the same.

No, we say our nature is "changed for the worse", and anathematize the contrary position.

CANON 1. If anyone denies that it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was "changed for the worse" through the offense of Adam's sin, but believes that the freedom of the soul remains unimpaired and that only the body is subject to corruption, he is deceived by the error of Pelagius and contradicts the scripture which says, "The soul that sins shall die" (Ezek. 18:20); and, "Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are the slaves of the one whom you obey?" (Rom. 6:16); and, "For whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved" (2 Pet. 2:19). (Council of Orange)
CANON 1. If any one does not confess that the first man, Adam, when he had transgressed the commandment of God in Paradise, immediately lost the holiness and justice wherein he had been constituted; and that he incurred, through the offence of that prevarication, the wrath and indignation of God, and consequently death, with which God had previously threatened him, and, together with death, captivity under his power who thenceforth had the empire of death, that is to say, the devil, and that the entire Adam, through that offence of prevarication, was changed, in body and soul, for the worse; let him be anathema. (Council of Trent)

Perhaps you are confusing our condemnation of the opposite Protestant error that human nature is utterly corrupted and unable to do anything good?

If the Blessed Mary was conceived without sin and full of Grace, than her nature would have been that of Eve before the fall, and that would make her something that we are not, and her sainthood something we cannot attain even if we will it.

You seem to be confusing the results of the active conception (the creation of her body by her parents in sexual intercourse) and the passive conception (the creation of her soul by God). God perfected her soul through grace in the passive conception. Her body is what her parents were able to give her, a corrupted nature from Adam, and upon this, the perfection of her soul had no direct bearing.

Her body was not perfected until the Assumption, just as ours will not be perfected until the Resurrection.

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