The Lady of the Night: She seeks to seduce your soul!

Zion's Fire ^ | 06 June 2000 | Marvin J. Rosenthal

[Zuriel]

There is plenty of debate on "works".

We are not saved by our own works, that's for sure. But are saved to work the works of God.

Saved by grace. True. Unmerited favor. It's because he loves us that he sends preachers that preach the plan of salvation.

Gotta hear the God ordained preacher? Yes. Some effort involved in that? Yes.
Gotta believe what that preacher says? Yes. (turning toward God, which is repentance, is a product of belief)
Gotta call on the name of the Lord? Yes. Some effort involved in that? Yes.

Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is not only about what he did, but also what he said. ("..whosoever heareth these sayings of mine..")

Here's some of the important things he said:

John 3:3-8 "..Except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God", "..Except a man be born of the water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". "..Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again". "thou hearest the sound thereof....so is every one that is born of the Spirit".

And John 7:38,39 "He that believeth on me as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (But this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

[amosmoses]

used to but had to give it up! Your a Jerry Reed fan right? Great song

[amosmoses]

Bad fruit in that context is actually referring to heresies- Unless you beleive muslims and christ rejecters can produce good fruit as well.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

And there's always the parable of the talents and the story about separating the sheep from the goats....no matter what, he who sits on his duff and doesn't do the Lord's work has let his Lord down...

[gamarob1]

Someone earlier quoted the 'works' scriptures ... evidently trying to make the case that faith was not sufficient. Churches are full of these people. Sheep beaters. Works works works and always pointing the finger at those who do not work enough. I've seen so many driven from the Gospel by these people. I wish they would tell us how we, whose righteousness is as filthy (menstrual) rags, can work our way into Christ's favor?

Boy, are you ever right!!! That is my biggest annoyance, I can be right in the midst of leading someone to Christ on the internet, and some "christian" comes up and says "well you know faith without works is dead, and Jesus will say many will hear Lord Lord" etc, and they try to actually blow the whole thing. I just don't understand "christians" that want works over grace

My experience is that loving God does produce works

Exactly. I'm doing this because I love God, not because I'm trying to get into heaven. I'm already going

Thank you for the post and reply, I appreciate it :)

[gamarob1]

only all of that just that that isn't in any Bible I happen to own.

Read it again, especially Revelation 12

Anyway you're very hostile and unchristian against people calling Tammuz/Isis/etc, of the devil. Do you worship them or something? Because if you do, how can you also worship Christ? Just curious...

[gamarob1]

Matthew 7:18-20 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Sure. And a good tree is ONLY good, because that tree is born again by GRACE ALONE. I do good works, because I'm ALREADY saved by grace.

I think you're just not yet Thinkin' it through. ;)

[Jeremiah Jr]

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Commandments/Mitzvot

They won’t get past the Mezuzah !

[Credo_in_unum_deum]

I'm more of an NIV guy ;)

You could do worse...like a New American ::shudder::

From my experience the NIV is a fairly faithful English translation. Not sure I'd care for the footnotes, though : )

[Credo_in_unum_deum]

No thanks...I like the KJV the best. If I want something in the OT, I'd take a Jewish Bible over any modern day Christian one, where all kinds of things have been messed with, in translation.

Me, too...that's why I go with a Bible based on the Septuagint. If you prefer the Jewish old testament, why not take the Jewish OT from the Alexandrian Jews over two centuries before Christ over the Jewish OT from the Palestinian Jews who had already rejected Christ?

And I don't take books from the Apocrypha as legit...I'm not going to go any further with this discussion, because it's pointless. If I were to post a true refutation, you and/or other would hit the abuse button.

If you do not wish to continue our discussion, that is your right. I must disagree with it being "pointless." It seems to me that the question of how we know the Truth is one with a very big point indeed. As for the abuse button, you still have seventy times seven times to offend me before I would seek to do you some evil.

You don't care for counter views.

Really? Do you know me? Have we met before? How is it you know so much about what I would like?

I'll give you the prophets' prophecies of the MESSIAH; that's a given. But, as far as the rest of it goes, I'm done with this and no, I refuse to take the Roman Catholic version of anything into count, as I am not a Catholic.

Really? You won't even give me that the Hebrew names of OT figures are relevant? Why is it that God spends so much time changing people's names then?

Also, the typological reading of the OT is not the "Catholic" reading of the Bible, it is the Biblical reading of the Bible (admittedly, Biblical is just another way of saying Catholic). How is it that St. Paul knew that Adam was a "figure of the one who was to come" or that "the rock was Christ" or that the Red Sea was a figure of baptism, and the cloud that they passed under the Holy Ghost, or that baptism was Christian circumcision, or that Melchisedec was a type of Christ, etc.? Rejecting the typological reading of the OT is rejecting the entire set of Pauline epistles.

[Credo_in_unum_deum]

the Haydock is said to have 'powerful footnotes and commentary'. I haven't seen it, but will have to assume that some of those 'powerful' comments support the scripture mixed with man-made ('iron and clay') teachings that are not taken in context.

The commentary is mostly taken from the teachings of the Church Fathers. I know that some Protestants basically accept their orthodoxy, and some don't. Personally, I find knowing what the Christians thought during the first 500 years after Our Lord interesting.

[Credo_in_unum_deum]

Unlike some people here, I don't proselytize

For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. ...How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?...Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ

and would appreciate NOT being told that I should believe the way someone else else does,

Acts 1:14 - "All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren"

Romans 12:16 - "Being of one mind one towards another"

Romans 15:5,6 - "Now the God of patience and of comfort grant you to be of one mind one towards another, according to Jesus Christ: That with one mind, and with one mouth, you may glorify God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

2 Corinthians 13:11 - "For the rest, brethren, rejoice, be perfect, take exhortation, be of one mind, have peace; and the God of peace and of love shall be with you."

Philippians 1:27 - "Only let your conversation be worthy of the gospel of Christ: that, whether I come and see you, or, being absent, may hear of you, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind labouring together for the faith of the gospel."

Philippians 2:2 - "Fulfill ye my joy, that you may be of one mind, having the same charity, being of one accord, agreeing in sentiment."

1 Peter 3:8 - "And in fine, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, being lovers of the brotherhood, merciful, modest, humble:"

Sorry, neighbor. There is only one God, and therefore only one truth. So yes, you must believe as someone else does. You must believe the one truth.

or that I should "BURN MY BIBLE"; as I was ordered to do, by another poster here.

"Ordered"? It was really more of a suggestion. I am a little sorry about that, though. I had intended to put a ": )" on the end of that, so you would know that I was in jest. Not that the KJV is not a really awful translation, and you really should get yourself a real Bible at some point. But it was not my intent to hurt your feelings, and I apologize if I have done so.

[NRA2BFree]

I really don't mean to be argumentative, nor to cast aspersions on you, but I just reread much of Genesis, including Gen 3:15, and unless there's some hidden code/invisible writing, my King James Version is completely bereft of that which you have claimed is written in the Bible. It just isn't there......NO prophecy of Jesus, nothing at all about a Savior, and NOTHING about Cain meaning "acquired" and his being the Christ.

Don't forget the King James version is not the origional version of God's Word..

[nopardons]

You weren't "jesting", I have REAL Bibles, proselytizing other CHRISTIANS is not only stupid, but offensive, and if you want a more closed to GOD OT, READ A JEWISH BIBLE!

Now go and ask GOD's forgiveness.

[nopardons]

No, Jewish Bibles are and since Catholic Bibles contain a myriad of translations, they aren't the be all and end all of "purity" either. Maybe all of us should just wait for the DEAD SEA SCROLLS to be finally made public. ;^)

And that's all I have to say to any of you.

[Credo_in_unum_deum]

That is my biggest annoyance, I can be right in the midst of leading someone to Christ on the internet, and some "christian" comes up and says "well you know faith without works is dead, and Jesus will say many will hear Lord Lord" etc, and they try to actually blow the whole thing. I just don't understand "christians" that want works over grace

It isn't a question of what we want, it is a question of what God has ordained. "Every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down and cast into the fire."

There will be many people who have faith, who, because they do not do good WORKS, will burn in everlasting fire with the devil and the angels. "Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble." (Jas 2:19)

See also Hebrews 10:26 - "For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries." This is very clear that a Christian who brings forth bad fruit by sinning "wilfully" (as opposed to the sins without full consent of the will, i.e. mortal vs. venial sin) has no hope, but only "dreadful expectation", and will go not to heaven, but to "the rage of a fire" with the "adversaries" (a.k.a. "Satan")

Those "christians" you speak of could just as easily reply, "I don't understand 'christians' who only preach half the gospel." (Technically, only a third, because Faith is only one of the three theological virtues, and likewise only one third of possession of Christ per his own self idenification as "The Way, The Truth, and The Life" w/out which no one goes to the Father).

Exactly. I'm doing this because I love God, not because I'm trying to get into heaven. I'm already going

1 Corinthians 10:12 - "Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall."

1 Corinthians 9:27 - "...perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway"

None of us know whether or not we are going to heaven. "Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain." (1 Cor 9:24)

St. Paul asks us to "run that [we] may obtain." He says of himself that he does "all things for the gospel's sake: that I may be made partaker thereof." (1 Cor 9:23) The things that he does are what make him a partaker of the gospel. He does not say that he is already a partaker of the gospel, and just does good works as a kind of thank you note sent heavenward. The works that he did, and the works that he asked us to do, were done so that we would "with fear and trembling work out [our] salvation" (Phil 2:12)

So please accept this in the spirit in which it is given. "He that loveth correction, loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is foolish." (Prov 12:1) I am not impuning your sincerity. But poison is poison, no matter how innocently it is thought to be medicine. You are preaching a false gospel if you preach a gospel that makes works a mere afterthought in the Economy of Grace. And anyone who believes that false gospel will lead a life that will lead to damnation.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."

I apologize if I have said anything in what seems to be an uncharitable tone. It is always difficult on the internet to get across the proper sense of what you want to say. Please accept my prayers for you.

[Credo_in_unum_deum]

You weren't "jesting",

Ah...so you know all the secrets of my heart? I say that I was jesting, you say I wasn't. Who is more likely to know?

proselytizing other CHRISTIANS is not only stupid, but offensive,

I don't proselytize to Christians. I do proselytize to heretics. Or are you of the opinion that there is no such thing as heresy or error? And if you are so offended by my desire for you to know what I believe to be the truth, then I can only say, "He that loveth correction, loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof is foolish." (Prov 12:1)

and if you want a more closed to GOD OT, READ A JEWISH BIBLE!

Why, when Jewish Bibles now in circulation are from nearly a thousand years after their rejection of Christ? As a Catholic, I already have the true Jewish Bible as it was in use by Jews before the Incarnation.

Now go and ask GOD's forgiveness.

I do. Every day. But making an attempt (futile, in this case) to discuss the truth will never be one of the things that I ask to be forgiven for.

[Salvation]

Does not this refer to the Middle East?

[Salvation]

And isn't the place of rest with Christ in the Mass with the Holy Eucharist?

[Salvation]

With ALL the Scripture in it. All inspired by the Holy Spirit!