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To: SoothingDave
So we know that IF one is righteous it is because God has made him righteous . Man can not will it
Duh. No one has said otherwise, and we have repeatedly told you so.

Then why does the glory not go to God and not mary?

Your attitude is like refusing to call a painter's paintings beautiful for fear of angering the painter. It's illogical.

When you look at the art it gets no glory, it is appreciated and enjoyed but it is the artist that gets the praise and glory for HIS work

Actually I know that the grace of God has opened heavens gates and we enter not on our worth or righteousness but His..
Exactly my point again. You don't believe God can make us righteous, only that He has agreed to pretend we are. Such a limitation.

No, God declares us righteous .. there is not one that is righteous no not one

The word righteous means to be right with God.. God is the one that makes that determination not men

But I asked if God would have revoked her freedom from original sin?
No.

If that "gift " was contingent on her obedience then why not?

If Mary's will was free why would it be a sin for her to refuse ? That removes free choice doesn't it?
Huh? Don't you understand the first thing about sin? Sin is choosing to do other than what God wants of us. It's that simple.

No it is not "quite" that simple. if you are going to defend "free will" then you must allow for choices that are neither good or bad

If God desired her to be the mother of Christ and it was a free will choice , that would have had to have been a neutral choice or it was really no choice at all. Do as I want or I zap you is hardly free will choice .

Choosing to marry Joseph and have his children and a normal life would not be a sin.. We are told if there is no law there is no sin . There was no preexisting covenant with mary so she would have broken no law

( for reference) Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

If free will is really free there is no consequence for doing what is not unlawful Dave

So I ask again would God have had to revoke Marys freedom from original sin if she refused?

443 posted on 05/12/2005 12:06:54 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Then why does the glory not go to God and not mary?

It would help if you read my previous posts. 318:

We acknowledge Mary's role as God's Handiwork. We don't ascribe glory to Mary outside of her cooperating with God and being the recipient of God's graces.

*************

You don't believe God can make us righteous, only that He has agreed to pretend we are. Such a limitation.

No, God declares us righteous .. there is not one that is righteous no not one

My, you're a bundle of contradictions. I believe if God wants to make us righteous, He will make us righteous. Not "declare" us so, make it so.

Why do you limit God?

The word righteous means to be right with God.. God is the one that makes that determination not men

Again, duh. It would really help if you either read my previous posts or studied Catholicism.

If that "gift " was contingent on her obedience then why not?

For the same reason it is impossible to unbaptise someone. What is done is done. If God has saved one from Original Sin, then He has done so. He can't push Mary back into the womb and undo what He has done.

No it is not "quite" that simple. if you are going to defend "free will" then you must allow for choices that are neither good or bad

Choices that are neither good nor bad are inconsequential. There is no need to "allow" for them. They don't matter. Next subject.

If God desired her to be the mother of Christ and it was a free will choice , that would have had to have been a neutral choice or it was really no choice at all.

Huh? God laid out two paths. Pick the one where you are ahumble servant or pick the other one. It's a real choice. And it's not neutral.

(Unless, of course, you believe we're all just robots acting out our programs.)

Choosing to marry Joseph and have his children and a normal life would not be a sin.. We are told if there is no law there is no sin . There was no preexisting covenant with mary so she would have broken no law

And we're the "legalistic" ones? If God makes Himself known what He wants of you and you refuse, that damn well is sin, even if it isn't written down somewhere in a "covenant." What an odd notion!

If free will is really free there is no consequence for doing what is not unlawful Dave

Another tortured exegesis from those who believe they are personally led to all truth.

So I ask again would God have had to revoke Marys freedom from original sin if she refused?

I told you already, and this is a highly speculative topic anyway, but no.

SD

460 posted on 05/12/2005 12:41:26 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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