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To: PetroniusMaximus
But he did, in certain realms - like what he would wear, or what he would eat etc.

Yes, of course, regarding temporal mundanities, I'm sure there was no lack of variation based on time and setting.

But He was also a faithful Jew who followed closely the laws of Moses. The Pharisees may have accused Him of running afoul by performing miracles on the Sabbath, but Jesus rebuked them for allowing their self-righteousness to distort "the law" as God intended when He gave it to Moses. So, in essence, Christ did not have "pragmatic freedom" when it came to fulfilling His mission, but walked a very narrow path to the Cross. Christ's will was to do the Father's will. In essence, He was perpetually in bondage to the Father's will - and by manner of His own free will. 2 Corinthians 3:17
"... where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

Galatians 5:1
"For freedom Christ has set us free;"

Yes, but "the Truth will set you free". Truth is rigid, not flexible. Facts are imprisoned by truth. They cannot deviate or have pragmatism applied to them. In other words, 1 + 1 = 2. It's never anything different. The formula doesn't equal "three" when it's raining outside, or in certain time zones. It's rigid.

The same can be said for the Truth which "sets us free". This Truth is not made of putty. It can't be reshaped for the sake of pragmatism. Jesus didn't say, "Do something kind-of sort-of like this in memory of me." It was "do this in memory of me."

So, yes, the Old Testament is certainly more replete with rules and regulations, but so is the New Testament:

You shall love the Lord God with all your heart, etc.
Do unto others...
Love your enemies
Turn the other cheek
Forgive 70 times 70 times
etc. etc. etc.

In fact, the only pragmatism Christ applied to His teaching was in using parables. And the reason He used parables was that the sinfulness of that generation (and the others before) prevented them from seeing and hearing what the Apostles could see and hear in Christ's Word.

In sum, the story of salvation is the story of contradictions. Because man does not think like God, what is Truth can oftentimes run contrary to our natural inclinations. We give in order to receive; we forgive in order to be forgiven; we die in order to have eternal life; Christ "became" sin in order to conquer Satan; poverty here stores riches in heaven, and in order to be free, one must surrender to Truth and follow wherever the Shepherd leads.

The Truth is one and always. There has to be a guarantor of the Truth and a body to receive an affirm it. That gurantor is the Holy Spirit; that body is the Catholic Church, built on Peter, the rock.

1,124 posted on 05/18/2005 6:22:28 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: Rutles4Ever
So, yes, the Old Testament is certainly more replete with rules and regulations, but so is the New Testament:

You shall love the Lord God with all your heart, etc.

Do unto others ...

Love your enemies

Turn the other cheek

Forgive 70 times 70 times

... etc. etc. etc.


Yes ... such as you list above is a good representation of the commandments set forth in the NT.

I am reminded that Paul sets out love as the basis for any valued service in the kingdom of God.

If love is not the root of what we do ... then whatever we do has no value.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, ... but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, ... but have not love, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, ... but have not love, it profits me nothing.
In fact, the only pragmatism Christ applied to His teaching was in using parables. And the reason He used parables was that the sinfulness of that generation (and the others before) prevented them from seeing and hearing what the Apostles could see and hear in Christ's Word.

Actually, this isn't quite the case ...

Pragmatics ran afoul of Old Testament Law when Jesus and His disciples gleaned corn from the fields on the Sabbath, ... and in the matter of the disciples not washing their hands before eating.
Mark 2:23 Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain.

24 And the Pharisees said to Him, "Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"

25 But He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him:

26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat, except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?"

27 And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.


...................................................................

Mark 7:5
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?"

6 He answered and said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.

7 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'

8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men -- the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."

9 He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.

1,127 posted on 05/18/2005 8:25:39 AM PDT by Quester (When in doubt ... trust God!)
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To: Rutles4Ever

*** Yes, of course, regarding temporal mundanities,***

And that's what I'm saying! Certain elements of Church organizations are "temporal mundanities" (though perhaps not quite so mundane as what one wears). Since we don't have a dividely ordained form of church government in the NT (unless you can show me one) let's look at another passage...



"What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.

If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.

Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.

If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." - 1 Cor 14





Do you see a certain casual attitude, a certain freedom Paul allows the Corinthians with regards to their Church order? That is the freedom of which I speak.

It is my understanding that the RCC (and they are not alone in this) is fairly rigid in regards to the order of service (excepting wacky liberals) and that this extends down even to rules regarding the physical composition of the containers which hold the bread and wine.

Could any layperson actually stand up in a meeting and say "I have a word from the Lord" and not be shut down?



*** You shall love the Lord God with all your heart, etc.
Do unto others...
Love your enemies
Turn the other cheek
Forgive 70 times 70 times
etc. etc. etc.****

These are principles. The counsel of Jerusalem made this clear when the issued the letter stating the Gentiles were not to be made subject to the Law, but that they should only, "abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." Only these three holdovers - and this, no doubt, was for the sake of the consciences of the Jewish believers.


*** Yes, but "the Truth will set you free". Truth is rigid, not flexible.***

The freedom is in living by the principles of the NT (out of love and gratitude to the God who saved you) while being guided and empowered by the Spirit.

This is quite different from living on pins and needles trying to keep the 630 odd commands of the Torah and the thousands and thousands of additional commands of the Talmud.



***In sum, the story of salvation is the story of contradictions. Because man does not think like God, what is Truth can oftentimes run contrary to our natural inclinations. We give in order to receive; we forgive in order to be forgiven; we die in order to have eternal life; Christ "became" sin in order to conquer Satan; poverty here stores riches in heaven, and in order to be free, one must surrender to Truth and follow wherever the Shepherd leads.***

Very true, and may I add, quite beautifully expressed.










1,194 posted on 05/19/2005 6:58:06 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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