Posted on 05/11/2005 10:04:08 AM PDT by NYer
***21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.***
OMM, what is your point here?
But God could do such a thing, if He wanted? Save someone from sin, rather than lift them out of sin.
What is your opinion of the following...
Phillip Schaff is not infallible.
SD
From your 187
***Are you speaking to me personally? If so waht are some of these things? ***
I told you some of these things.
Does the Bible say that Jesus was the Son of Mary? Is Mary Jesus' mother? Was and is Jesus God? Scripture is clear on who Mary is and who Jesus is...
But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:43 (NIV)
What then does that refer to? Elizabeth cannot be merely saying that Jesus is her earthly Lord, because he has not yet been born; therefore, she must be referring to Christ's divinity -- so this is no different from proclaiming that Mary is the Mother of God.
Because sacrifice to God is part of that dispensation and is fully documented in the bible. A goddess type with some new trimmings and a new name is not part of biblical doctrine for Christianity.
You just described the way that the RCC invents doctrine. The finger was in the air for "centuries" as you stated and then when the political timing was correct, the doctrine was established. But this is not doctrine that comes from the bible anymore than the Heavenly Mother.
*** But God could do such a thing, if He wanted?***
Yes, but then He wouldn't turn around and state in His Word that...
"There is none righteous, no, not one"
... because He would be misleading us.
Or did He forget about Mary when He had that written?
Do you understand that this is not about degrading blessed Mary but about protecting and lifting up the unique nature of Christ?
Only if you believe that is an absolute statement, without any exception allowed. Doesn't the Bible say Job was righteous? Were all Old Testament figures damned for their unrighteousness? Could this be hyperbole?
Do you understand that this is not about degrading blessed Mary but about protecting and lifting up the unique nature of Christ?
Yes, of course. But you are blurring the lines between human and divine without good cause. Even if what we say of Mary is true, it does not make her divine and it does not imbue her with any power or grace that does not derive from God.
It's a tempest in a teapot.
Meanwhile, Zuriel says the most outrageous things about Christ and His natures and no Protestant says a word. Can you understand that everything we say about Mary is meant to express a truth about Jesus?
SD
Actually, when you see what they've invented of Mary, that needs to be degraded back down to reality. I realize this is not an approach that will work. I shouldn't try and share the glory of the Lord by dissing someone's invention. I should just Glorify Jesus. However it is as if Satan has short circuited that glory and His glory all goes to her. Why it's as if birds come up and eat the seeds.
Out of curiousity, do you believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ?
No, that would be too obvious. But the bible also says there are many anti-Christs. I am most offended by the pope's title "Holy Father". This is a name of God, used by Jesus only, and only once in the whole bible, and only during prayer. So to take on that name is certainly a type of the abomination of desolation activity or a self deification thing. After that I'm pretty offended by the Pope claiming to be the head of the Church because Christ is the head of the Church. Well maybe I'm even more offended by the pope's propegation of Marianism because I really have a problem with that.
I was just reading about the birth of John. John's dad was a priest, a real priest. And he had a wife. John the Baptists dad was a real priest and he had a wife, and at least one child too. Probably only the one. It just really struck me, again, as we see the whole issue about RC "priests", which are not real priests anyway, being without wives. Oh what a tangled web has been woven the RCC
90. The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 [fn. 51: "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."]There is also a helpful explanation of the hierarchy of truths in Catholic and Christian by Alan Schreck (Servant Publications, Ann Arbor, 1984):
As explained in the prologue, Catholics believe that there is a “hierarchy” or order of Christian truths. In other words, not all Christian truths are equally central to the basic Gospel message.... This principle has its foundation in the Bible. For example, in all the New Testament letters attributed to Paul, Mary is mentioned only once, and not even by name (Gal4:4). This certainly does not prove that Paul never spoke about Mary, but it does indicate that the basic gospel could be proclaimed without focusing on Mary....
The principle of the “hierarchy” of truths points out two extremes that must be avoided in Christian teaching about Mary. On the one hand, Marian doctrine must not be presented as equal in importance to the fundamental Christian truths about the nature of God and redemption. Mary must never be exalted to the status of a “goddess” deserving the worship and adoration due only to God. On the other hand, Mary’s role in God’s plan of salvation must not be ignored nor neglected....The [Second Vaticn] Council briefly mentions here {in lumen Gentium, no. 67] the key principle for understanding doctrines about Mary: they must always be related to Jesus Christ, who is “the source of all truth, sanctity, and piety.”
Many Christians who honor Mary as a woman of faith and as a model disciple have difficulty understanding why the Catholic Church teaches certain other beliefs about Mary — that she was conceived without sin, for example, or that she was assumed into heaven at the end of her life on earth.
Where did these teachings come from? They are not explicitly taught in scripture, and it is not even historically clear that they were handed down from the preaching of the original apostles. Rather, these beliefs emerged over time as Christians reflected on what the Bible says about Jesus and his mother....
As the teaching authorities of the Catholic Church discerned which beliefs about Mary were to be considered the authentic beliefs of the church, two principles of discernment guided their judgment. First, no Christian belief can contradict anything in the Bible or in the genuine tradition handed down from the apostles. All further understandings of Mary’s role had to be tested against the canon of revealed truth. Secondly, any insight that develops from reflection on the Christian revelation must be shown to have won acceptance from God’s people over a long period of time.
Funny thing that is, when you have an inherited proesthood, priests need wives.
SD
***Doesn't the Bible say Job was righteous?***
Was Job indeed righteous?
Job 42:5-7
"I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes."
***Were all Old Testament figures damned for their unrighteousness?***
They were surely not saved for their righteousness. Name one major character didn't have to offer sacrifices.
They were saved for their faith in looking forward to Christ (as we in turn look back to him).
***Could this be hyperbole?***
It is an integral paret of Paul's argument in the book of Romans.
***Even if what we say of Mary is true, it does not make her divine and it does not imbue her with any power or grace that does not derive from God.***
It introduces another layer of seperation between the believer and Christ - and that, more than anything, is what give it the smell of the infernal.
Rather than going straight to Christ you are strongly pressured (or encouraged?) to go to Mary and let her got to Christ.
It reminds me of the error Paul addressed in Colossae - the introduction of angel or "aeon" through which the believer must go befor reaching Christ. Paul combats this by instructing believers that they are complete in Christ.
*** It's a tempest in a teapot.***
Perhaps, or is it possible (and I don't mean this to provoke) that Mary has become a substitute for Christ in the minds and hearts of many.
***Can you understand that everything we say about Mary is meant to express a truth about Jesus?***
Then why not express it directly about Jesus?
She keep none of the veneration she receives from the Church. By honoring her as the Mother of God, we give glory to God who made her.
It is not seperation, but rather the joining into a family, a communion of believers.
Perhaps, or is it possible (and I don't mean this to provoke) that Mary has become a substitute for Christ in the minds and hearts of many.
I simply don't think that Catholics expressing a devotion to Mary see it as Protestants do, that they are "taking away" something owed to Christ, or ignoring Him in favor of another. I would be real surprised to find someone devoted to Mary who thought Jesus wasn't necessary.
Then why not express it directly about Jesus?
Because it is an aid to thinking. It is a shorthand. And it is a protection from error. If you know Mary is Theotokos, or "Mother of God" you would never babble on in Nestorian (or other Christological) heresy.
SD
Job 1:1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
"That man was perfect and upright."
SD
I say a version of the Eastern Christian "Jesus Prayer" that affirms this dogma.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, and Son of Mary, have mercy on me, a sinner.
*** "That man was perfect and upright."***
Part of the story.
"therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes."
The rest of the story.
SD
***You just through out the entire premise of the story.***
How so my friend?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.