The Mother of the Son: The Case for Marian Devotion

Catholic Exchange ^ | May 11, 2005 | Mark Shea

[annalex]

Mary's hesitation and acceptance, "be it done to me according to thy word" is, of course, the mirror image of Eve's hesitation and refusal to obey God. Free will of Eve caused our condemnation and free will of Mary brings forth our salvation. Hence all the co-redeemer theology that the Protestants are so fond of citing.

[Old Mountain man]

Just exactly what does the Book of Mormon add that contradicts the Old or New testament?

[RnMomof7]

So we know that IF one is righteous it is because God has made him righteous . Man can not will it
Duh. No one has said otherwise, and we have repeatedly told you so.

Then why does the glory not go to God and not mary?

Your attitude is like refusing to call a painter's paintings beautiful for fear of angering the painter. It's illogical.

When you look at the art it gets no glory, it is appreciated and enjoyed but it is the artist that gets the praise and glory for HIS work

Actually I know that the grace of God has opened heavens gates and we enter not on our worth or righteousness but His..
Exactly my point again. You don't believe God can make us righteous, only that He has agreed to pretend we are. Such a limitation.

No, God declares us righteous .. there is not one that is righteous no not one

The word righteous means to be right with God.. God is the one that makes that determination not men

But I asked if God would have revoked her freedom from original sin?
No.

If that "gift " was contingent on her obedience then why not?

If Mary's will was free why would it be a sin for her to refuse ? That removes free choice doesn't it?
Huh? Don't you understand the first thing about sin? Sin is choosing to do other than what God wants of us. It's that simple.

No it is not "quite" that simple. if you are going to defend "free will" then you must allow for choices that are neither good or bad

If God desired her to be the mother of Christ and it was a free will choice , that would have had to have been a neutral choice or it was really no choice at all. Do as I want or I zap you is hardly free will choice .

Choosing to marry Joseph and have his children and a normal life would not be a sin.. We are told if there is no law there is no sin . There was no preexisting covenant with mary so she would have broken no law

( for reference) Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.

If free will is really free there is no consequence for doing what is not unlawful Dave

So I ask again would God have had to revoke Marys freedom from original sin if she refused?

[biblewonk]

Out of curiousity, can you cite any theological works published prior to the 19th century. Or did this start when, as you believe, Catholics "invented" certain doctrines about Mary in the 19th century? (Which I find quite laughable since you are so fond of quoting de Montfort's work which was over a century before this.)

Well, actually, I don't find much time to read any "theological works" other than the bible as of late. I find most of them to be too much like De Montfort's work in one way or another and I have 100 percent trust and faith in the bible. I read through it about 3 times a year and I just keep finding more secrets. God knows how to compress data.

So are you thinking that I believe that Marianism was invented by DeMontfort? I'm having a little trouble parsing your sentence there. I know Marianism has been "developed" over the centuries.

[biblewonk]

10. (4) God chose her to be the treasurer, the administrator and the dispenser of all his graces, so that all his graces and gifts pass through her hands. Such is the power that she has received from him that, according to St Bernardine, she gives the graces of the eternal Father, the virtues of Jesus Christ, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to whom she wills, as and when she wills, and as much as she wills.

I guess so!

[annalex]

I know so -- I read the Bible.

[RnMomof7]

Correct, grace does not fill the rest of us entirely since we sin.

Could you please point me to the scripture that declares Mary sinless?

Every Christian has a time of sinlessness when he confesses and repents.. he is 'sinless" until he sins again .

The issue is I think is a visual image of a glass half full or completely full. Grace is a gift of God , there is no scripture that indicates that some have more grace than others.

God told Paul that His Grace was sufficient for Him

We cannot speculate what would have happened had she refused, as Wagglebee ably explained in 427. The scripture is silent on this question; but the scripture is not silent on Mary's fullness of grace and her ability to accept it or resist it.

An entire doctrine is built on a greeting by an angel found only in the Alexandrain texts. Please do lead me to the place where it says she could accept or reject it. .Please point me to where she was even given the choice ..

I will point you to one place where we know one was full of Grace

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Honestly ?? I see the entire Maryology built on nothing but speculation.

[ksen]

Wait a minute. Did Mary have yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

this free will?

Or (your post 110)God created her in such a way that the outcome was sure. this free will?

Those are not mutually exclusive, unless you want to ignore that there is a difference between the Divine perspective and our own.

Or was Mary This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only? Which sounds suspiciously like she was born without original sin.

Nah, that describes the Believer in Glory in the presence of God.

[annalex]

The doctrine is built on the passages from Luke 1, Mary's role described in the Revelation, and parallels with Genesis. Don't be tiresome, -- you know the verses albeit mistranslated. I cited the originals for you as well.

[biblewonk]

You didn't get De Montfort doctrine about Mary out of the bible.

[wagglebee]

Actually, most Protestants don't have any real problems with Catholicism's Marian beliefs.

The following remarks are all from writings and sermons of Martin Luther:

Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.

He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.

God says . . . : "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God.

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.

Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation.

Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!" You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honor . . . We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her . . . He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.

Martin Luther's Devotion to Mary

All of this is from the man who developed the main Protestant doctrines of sola scriptura and sola fide, yet it would appear that these Marian beliefs did not conflict with his theological doctrine, because he knew them to be Biblically valid.

[annalex]

Moi? No, De Montfort did.

[annalex]

Do you read German? I wonder what Rev. Luther put in for gratia plena.

[biblewonk]

11. (5) As in the natural life a child must have a father and a mother, so in the supernatural life of grace a true child of the Church must have God for his Father and Mary for his mother. If he prides himself on having God for his Father but does not give to Mary the tender affection of a true child, he is an impostor and his father is the devil.

Not from the bible.

[annalex]

28 Und der Engel kam zu ihr hinein und sprach: Gegrüßet seist du, Holdselige! Der HERR ist mit dir, du Gebenedeite unter den Weibern!

[annalex]

God for his Father and Mary for his mother is not from the Bible?

[wagglebee]

I will try to make it simpler:
When, to the best of your knowledge, did Biblical scholars such as yourself FIRST begin to write, preach, or otherwise convey your "discovery" that Catholics had views about Mary that you considered to be heretical? I am simply interested in the history of this train of thought, what is the earliest specific source you are aware of?

[wagglebee]

Sorry, don't speak German, tranlation please.

[annalex]

... and on the Behold your son - behold your mother exchange at Calgary.

[SoothingDave]

Then why does the glory not go to God and not mary?

It would help if you read my previous posts. 318:

We acknowledge Mary's role as God's Handiwork. We don't ascribe glory to Mary outside of her cooperating with God and being the recipient of God's graces.

*************

You don't believe God can make us righteous, only that He has agreed to pretend we are. Such a limitation.

No, God declares us righteous .. there is not one that is righteous no not one

My, you're a bundle of contradictions. I believe if God wants to make us righteous, He will make us righteous. Not "declare" us so, make it so.

Why do you limit God?

The word righteous means to be right with God.. God is the one that makes that determination not men

Again, duh. It would really help if you either read my previous posts or studied Catholicism.

If that "gift " was contingent on her obedience then why not?

For the same reason it is impossible to unbaptise someone. What is done is done. If God has saved one from Original Sin, then He has done so. He can't push Mary back into the womb and undo what He has done.

No it is not "quite" that simple. if you are going to defend "free will" then you must allow for choices that are neither good or bad

Choices that are neither good nor bad are inconsequential. There is no need to "allow" for them. They don't matter. Next subject.

If God desired her to be the mother of Christ and it was a free will choice , that would have had to have been a neutral choice or it was really no choice at all.

Huh? God laid out two paths. Pick the one where you are ahumble servant or pick the other one. It's a real choice. And it's not neutral.

(Unless, of course, you believe we're all just robots acting out our programs.)

Choosing to marry Joseph and have his children and a normal life would not be a sin.. We are told if there is no law there is no sin . There was no preexisting covenant with mary so she would have broken no law

And we're the "legalistic" ones? If God makes Himself known what He wants of you and you refuse, that damn well is sin, even if it isn't written down somewhere in a "covenant." What an odd notion!

If free will is really free there is no consequence for doing what is not unlawful Dave

Another tortured exegesis from those who believe they are personally led to all truth.

So I ask again would God have had to revoke Marys freedom from original sin if she refused?

I told you already, and this is a highly speculative topic anyway, but no.

SD