The Mother of the Son: The Case for Marian Devotion

Catholic Exchange ^ | May 11, 2005 | Mark Shea

[wagglebee]

The Biblical evidence for Roman Catholicism's Marian beliefs is found (primarily) in Genesis 3:15, Luke 1 and John 19:26-27.

[ksen]

Maybe protestants just have better eyesight :)

[annalex]

My Bible clearly shows ...

I don't know what Nestorian Bible shows. Mine came without colors or capitalization.

[wagglebee]

You're way off base here. Free will is essential to our being made in the image of God. Being free means sin is possible, but it also means that, with God's graces, we can choose to freely love Him.

I see that what I said made no sense, it was late and I was tired.

[SoothingDave]

This Irishman notes the orange shirt on that kid. ;-)

SD

[biblewonk]

Excellent, thanks.

[SoothingDave]

Maybe protestants just have better eyesight :)

See Zuriel's 237 above for how having a confused Christology and denial of Marian titles go hand in hand.

SD

[wagglebee]

Can you provide Biblical evidence to support your claim that Mary is not superior to Eve, when Mary is clearly referred to by the archangel Gabriel as "blessed among women," what other meaning could this have?

[biblewonk]

I know very well what the bible says about Mary. Very very little. I have a list of things on my home page that I call anti-Marian verses that the bible says and it is a very small list. I also know the bible says nothing about Mary being anything at all as described by De Montfort. Go read that piece at http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM and see what is invented about her. It is just not in the bible. We simply can't get away with taking the word "Blessed" and exploding it into a whole additional bible worth of doctrine about Mary. Nor can the Mormons take a couple of unrelated verses and explode them into doctrine about a Heavenly Mother. Well, obviously you both can, but it isn't valid.

[biblewonk]

Can you provide Biblical evidence to support your claim that Mary is not superior to Eve, when Mary is clearly referred to by the archangel Gabriel as "blessed among women," what other meaning could this have?

A woman who has 10 children, naturally, is blessed among women. It doesn't mean that she is anymore than that. A woman that has a loving husband is blessed among women, it doesn't mean that she is more blessed than them or that she is....See De Montfort. All it means is blessed. I'm blessed among men because I have 8 healthy kids and the most excellent of wives and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But don't start praying to me, even after I die.

[SoothingDave]

And I suppose all generations shall call you blessed as well?

SD

[RnMomof7]

Mary is called "blessed" three times in the first chapter of Luke (by the angel Gabriel, by Elizabeth and by herself), in fact she is referred to as "blessed" AMONG women and we are told that henceforth ALL generations shall call her "blessed". Assuming you agree that the Bible does say this, I have a few questions:The word "blessed appears often in scripture and is not unique to Mary

Lets look at the text

Luk 1:26	And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
Luk 1:27	To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.
Luk 1:28	And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.
Luk 1:29	And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30	And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31	And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32	He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33	And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34	Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35	And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
First notice that the angel said she was blessed.. that is not about her worth, but rather that God had blessed her . It was not about her or her worth, but rather what God had done to her ..He blessed her . Blessed-eulogeo 1) to praise, celebrate with praises 2) to invoke blessings 3) to consecrate a thing with solemn prayers a) to ask God's blessing on a thing b) pray God to bless it to one's use c) pronounce a consecratory blessing on 4) of God a) to cause to prosper, to make happy, to bestow blessings on b) favoured of God, blessed Notice that the word is an action taken by God, not a statement of worth . The voice of the word being used is passive ..(5786 Voice - Passive The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.) Her being blessed by God does not "earn" her honor" The honor and praise should go to the one that blesses not the blessed The presumption that Mary was born sinless is no where written. BUT if she was it born sinless and IF she lived a sinless life.. the glory for that must go not to the vessel, but the one that created it. Without an act of God she was just another Jewish girl. She has no worth within herself.

[RnMomof7]

God's foreknowledge does not take away from our free will. If I know that my daughter is playing with matches, and I allow her to continue and start the house on fire, I "foreknew" that it would happen. Did I take away her free will? Hardly. Not the best analogy, but it is clear that foreknowledge does not have to interfere with free will.

So although the plan of Salvation was ordained before the foundation of the earth God was not sure who the mother would be?

[wagglebee]

And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Luke 1:42

The term "blessed" is used her to refer to both Mary and Christ, it is not distinguished one from another. God would not "bless" Christ as he is also God, therefore it has to mean something different. The word "blessed" her is an adjective that describes both the Mother and Christ.

[ksen]

The same greek word used in Luke 1:28 about Mary is used also in:

• Matthew 26:26 - about bread

• Mark 8:7 - Loaves and fishes

• Galatians 3:9 - Abram

• Hebrews 7:1 - Abraham

• Hebrews 11:20 - Jacob

  Hebrews 11:21 - the sons of Joseph

So why isn't bread, fish, Abraham, Jacob, and the sons of Joseph given the same veneration as Mary?

[annalex]

"highly favoured" is a very bad translation of "kecharitomene", -- full of grace.

"Grace" appears in Luke 2:40, John 1:14, John 1:16, John 1:17 in the Gospels; each time the Greek original is "charis". What warranted the tortured "favoured" in Luke 1:28 of NIV we can only guess.

[RnMomof7]

The term "blessed" is used her to refer to both Mary and Christ, it is not distinguished one from another. God would not "bless" Christ as he is also God, therefore it has to mean something different. The word "blessed" her is an adjective that describes both the Mother and Christ.

We get the word eulogy from the greek word for blessed.

2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

All praise unto Him that made her worthy .. Blessed be his name !

[SoothingDave]

Notice that the word is an action taken by God, not a statement of worth . The voice of the word being used is passive ..(5786 Voice - Passive The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.)

Her being blessed by God does not "earn" her honor" The honor and praise should go to the one that blesses not the blessed

The presumption that Mary was born sinless is no where written. BUT if she was it born sinless and IF she lived a sinless life.. the glory for that must go not to the vessel, but the one that created it. Without an act of God she was just another Jewish girl. She has no worth within herself.

You should study Catholicism sometimes. Nothing you have said here is anything we would deny. You build up these false ideas about what we believe inside your head, and nothing we say can disabuse you of these notions.

We acknowledge Mary's role as God's Handiwork. We don't ascribe glory to Mary outside of her cooperating with God and being the recipient of God's graces.

Now, do you have anything to say about Zuriel's post and how his aversion to Mary and his faulty conceptions of Christ go together? Do you see how the Marian doctrines define Jesus?

SD

[SoothingDave]

So why isn't bread, fish, Abraham, Jacob, and the sons of Joseph given the same veneration as Mary?

None of them are full of grace. Also, none of them were the Mother of God.

This isn't really that difficult to understand.

SD

[wagglebee]

Matthew 26:26: Yes, the Body of Christ is most certainly given MORE veneration than Mary.

Mark 8:7: Christ was saying a blessing, as we do before we eat.

Galatians 3:9: Refers to people of faith, and yes we are blessed.

Hebrews 7:1: This is a man blessing another man, it has nothing to do with God.

Hebrews 11:20-21: Again, this deals with men not God.