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To: Campion; Kolokotronis; Agrarian

Campion's post adequately covers most of it.

When you stop to think of it, though, there's another problem, which has to do with the USA--genuine art-music is simply not produced here, and has not been for (arguably) 40+ years. Bernstein did some, Copland did some--it's very hard to come up with others.

Creators of art (strictly speaking) are waning, and have been waning, in this country and Western Europe, since the 1920's. There are a few in England, largely unknown here, and there may well be a few in the USA--who are also largely unknown.

Mel Gibson made a great work of art. Name another, in any field, since 1990...

The Irish influence never got much traction here in German/Polish Milwaukee, but "church music" is dead here, too, with a few exceptions. I think that most pastors simply did not have an interest, and certainly many of them were confused by the "spirit of the Council"--and our Archbishop was not particularly helpful.

I think Day was close--but not really correct. I think that the reason the music died was that by and large, pastors and parishioners just didn't give a damn.

As to why we didn't string up the Bishops...same reason. From the way you gentlemen Kolo/Ag have described your communities, there is a vastly more "communal" feel than that present in the RC parishes in worship, specifically. We all have the fish-fries, and socializing--but it's my impression that the RC's are much more "private" regarding worship. Regardless of the hand-holding, "greeters," and all that--

So those who objected were looked at as rather odd folks--and were definitely ostracized and marginalized by the Revolutionaries. They were ignored, or metaphorically murdered, by the Establishment and its well-orchestrated Zeitgeist.

Besides, we've been told that it is a grave sin to slap the s*&^ out of a priest.


35 posted on 05/05/2005 5:54:11 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot; Agrarian; Campion

"From the way you gentlemen Kolo/Ag have described your communities, there is a vastly more "communal" feel than that present in the RC parishes in worship, specifically. We all have the fish-fries, and socializing--but it's my impression that the RC's are much more "private" regarding worship. Regardless of the hand-holding, "greeters," and all that--"

One of the Truths which Orthodoxy stresses is the concept of the Eucharistic and Liturgical Community. We work out our theosis, at least the vast run of us, in these Liturgical communities. There is a sort of Christian communalism in Orthodox Churches which mirrors that of the villages back in the old country. To tell the truth, though, I think that the communalism of the villages is a result of the Orthodoxy of those places and not the other way around as I have experienced the same feeling in parishes made up totally of converts. Perhaps that's why we are so serious about preserving our Liturgies etc.; we're just more connected to them as communities than the equivalent Roman parish might be. Its also possible that the "spectator" quality of the role played by the laity for centuries in the West contributed to this,


38 posted on 05/05/2005 6:04:03 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: ninenot; Kolokotronis; MarMema; sandyeggo
Ninenot, you are definitely right on the communal aspect of Orthodoxy. K is right about the "village" feel to pretty much every Orthodox church I have been a part of. I grew up going to a small country Protestant church in a tight-knit community, but the sense of community I have experienced in Orthodoxy is at a completely different level -- in no small part because of the way that our dependence on each other in working out our salvation is viewed.

And the liturgical services are a huge part of that. I know that some people wonder what in the world we could possibly find to do in church for 2 - 3 hours a night virtually all through Holy Week. But for us this is a journey we take together, from the first time we sing "Behold, the Bridegroom comes at midnight, and blessed is the servant whom he shall find watching..." on Sunday night at the beginning of the week, to the exultant singing of "Let God arise, and let his enemies be scattered..." at 1:30 in the morning at the Paschal vigil (with still another hour or more to go...)

We practically live together during Holy Week, and on Paschal weekend, we are loathe to let it end, which is why the Bright Monday liturgy attendance is growing yearly at our parish.

You are right that good art is largely a dead issue in modern America. But as you have probably gathered, none of our liturgical tradition in Orthodoxy is linked to the state of art in the culture in which we find ourselves -- not our music, not our architecture, not our iconography. That's because it isn't really art anymore (or any less) than is the way a priest swings a censer or intones the Gospel.

It is linked to the traditions of the church, and even talent-less folks who do their best to faithfully follow those traditions will manage to convey the grace that comes through them.

Mind you, the impact of icons is even greater when the person painting them has artistic talent, and the chant has more of an impact when the people chanting have good ears and voices and innate musical ability. I know that every bit of of the decades of musical training and experience that I had have been taxed to the fullest in what I do, just faithfully following these traditions, and I think any icon painter would tell you the same thing.

Sandyeggo: If I didn't think that my ideas had any chance of sparking someone's interest and action, I wouldn't bother with sharing them. I am particularly spurred to share them having read some of the insightful writings of your new Pope, who understands that liturgical reform was necessary in the Catholic church 50 years ago, and that it is equally necessary now (both in the same ways as then, and unfortunately in some new ways, now.) He has stated that it is vital that the banner of "liturgical reform" is not the property of what you and I would call "the liberals" (he was much more diplomatic in how he put it.) Hope is a great Christian virtue!

47 posted on 05/05/2005 9:44:22 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: ninenot; Campion; Kolokotronis; Agrarian

I think ninenot has a definite point that high art is simply not an American tradition. It just isn't. I would add Menotti to the list of 20th century music artists, but there aren't that many.

I do think, though, that it is worth considering that music education was sorely lacking period, in the catholic schools, at any rate. I learned my vocal technique from a Jew who studied in Florence. It definitely wasn't from anything I learned in school.


59 posted on 05/06/2005 4:59:14 AM PDT by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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