Man Needs To Know God Created All Things

The greatness and power of God is pictured in a few bold strokes in the opening chapter of the Bible. The Genesis account of creation portrays God and identifies man. It sets the stage for all that follows. It is important for man to know about creation because it tells him who he is and vividly represents the might and divinity of the Creator.

Jehovah, Jesus and the Spirit, acting in the unison of their God nature, brought the present order of things into existence. There is only one true and living God who is three beings, or persons. The perfect unity between the three persons of God make a single entity. The plural nature of God is asserted in the opening chapter of the Bible. "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen. 1:26). God...us...our...the plural pronouns used in connection with the word God show the one is three and the three are one. This may sound like a contradiction, but it is not.

An illustration of the three-in-one understanding of deity may be seen in space. Space is limitless, having no bounds. Space has three measurements. Look at a cube. It has three dimensions-depth and height (same dimension measured from opposite ends), width and length (same dimension measured from opposite sides) and breadth and thickness (same dimension measured from opposite borders). Height, length, thickness each is separate and identifiable and are the dimensions of space. Space is one--the three are one and the one is three.

In much the same way, there are three distinguishable beings in one God. Each possess the God nature and besides this one God with three beings there is none other. God alone is God. The same information is given concerning man. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion..." (Gen. 1:26).

Notice "man" is singular, but God gave "them" dominion. The word man is used in the sense of mankind. Only those who possess human nature are man. They are one in their manhood, but separate in their being. They are many but the many are one. They alone are man and beside them none other possesses human nature. The brute beast is not man. Cows, dogs, horses do not possess human nature. Only man is man.

There are only three beings who possess the God nature. Each of the three has all the attributes of divinity. Each of the three is all knowing, all powerful, everywhere present, infinite in love, holiness and justice. The agreement between the three persons in the one God is absolute. They are perfectly united in thought, word, desire, and purpose. Though separate they are welded together into a consummate unit. They are one as the disciples of Jesus are to be one (John 17:21). The disciples of the Master, in their human weakness, may fail in their oneness, but God is faithful to his essential unity even if man is faithless in his.

The opening chapter of the book of Genesis does not give details about the essence of God, but it does give the outline. It makes us aware that God is plural and, therefore, from the first, affirms the eternal nature of the being who would one day restrict his God nature and also take the form of a servant, and be "made in all things like unto his brethren."

The Genesis account of creation is the only accurate report of the First Cause. Men, in their limited knowledge, may concoct all kinds of theories about the origin of things, but all such speculation is vain. Human conjecture is often a house of sand. We are now being told by some advocates of evolutionism that the whole universe came into existence in the expanding fireball of a big bang, doubling in size every tenth of a quadrillionth of a quintillionth of a second. That gets pretty close to the majestic statement of Moses, "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light" (Gen. 1:3).

God spoke the universe into existence. The expression "And God said" is repeated 10 times in the account of creation. He commanded and it was done. Not in eons, but in hours. Not in a long, indefinite period of time, but in days. Everything from light to man was created by the irresistible power of an Almighty God in 144 hours.

In 615 words God, through Moses, told all we know of how everything in the universe came into existence. The Bible story of creation is a masterful and fascinating description of how material things came into existence. No one has been able to improve on it. It is an introduction of the history of the dealings of God with man, and forms the ruling theme of inspired scripture. It shows us the Supreme Being in unquestioned majesty. The God of the spirits of all flesh - the moral governor of earth and sky and sea. The Genesis account shows us man as subservient to God. Man is in the image and likeness of God, but he is not God. He has limitations. He is finite and mortal. He is created -- not eternal. His spirit never dies, but man had a beginning. Man is dependent.

The Genesis account of creation should help us to understand that the throne of God is the center of everything. Our limited and distorted human vision is clouded and we do not see things as they are. We are tempted to suppose that the planet earth is the focal point of eternity. We are duped into supposing that authority and nobility are in the visible world around us.

God's throne is the center of the universe. The first book in the Bible explains the separateness and majesty of God. The last book in the Bible confirms this exalted truth. The apostle John on Patmos was given a vision of the cosmos. He saw God's eternal throne as the midpoint. It is a place of power, beauty and transcendent wisdom. Arched over the throne of God is an emerald rainbow. He who sits on the throne is "like a jasper stone and a sardius to look upon" (Rev. 4:3).

Daniel described the dwelling place of God. "I beheld till thrones were placed, and one that was ancient of days did sit: his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, and the wheels thereof burning fire" (Dan. 7:9). "And out of the throne proceed lightnings and voices and thunders. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; and before the throne, as it were a sea of glass like a crystal; and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, four living creatures full of eyes before and behind" (Rev. 4:5-6). Surrounding the throne of God are four living creatures and twenty-four thrones occupied by elders, having crowns of gold upon their heads. Beyond the living creatures and the elders' thrones are countless angels. "The number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5:11). Beyond the angel host--out on the periphery of the universe--are the kingdoms of men. The human drama is played out on the fringe of God's ageless kingdom. The center of everything is God. The account of creation helps us to know, to the limit of our ability to understand, the preeminence of God. His supremacy is undeniable. Almighty God made the worlds.

Jesus was the reason for making of all things. In Jesus we have the forgiveness of our sins "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fullness dwell; and through him to reconcile all things unto himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things upon the earth, or things in the heavens" (Col. 1:15-20). God made everything good. Six times in the Genesis account of creation God looked at what he made and pronounced it good (Gen. 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25). Then, to top it off, "God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good" (Gen. 1:31). It was all good--not only good but very good! God made nothing that was bad, or evil.

Bad things came when man rebelled against God. God made man good and gave to him the power of choice. Man decided to do something God had forbidden. Man was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil--the tree that stood in the midst of Eden. Man did what God told him not to do. Man can reject the rule of God in his life. If man fails to do what God has commanded, or does what God forbids, he is distanced from God. In his separation from his maker, man is miserable and lost. His rebellion brings upon him sorrow and suffering. The blessing God intended for man is ruined because of man's disobedience. The Bible account of creation tells us that sin brings death (Gen. 3:3). The New Testament reiterates it..."the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Every ounce of woe and every gram of heartache visited on the human race is the result of man's stubborn rebellion to God. The polio virus and cancer virus did not exist in the beginning but are the results of mutation. The world as we see it today is not the world as God made it, but is the world as man has spoiled it. When man rejects God and refuses to follow his word, he brings about profound alterations. Having caused the change, man must live in consequence of it. We must suffer from the transgressions of all who have gone before us, and all who come after us will have to endure the results of our folly. "For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:20-23).

God deniers try to discredit believers by asking, If God is good where does evil come from? The answer is, all evil comes from man's rejection of God's will and way. Evil is the fault of the creature--not the Creator. It is the bitter fruit of disobedience. This is fundamental and basic. The essential goodness of God is underscored in his promise that the seed of woman would bruise the head of Satan (Gen. 3:15). In mysterious grandeur God speaks of the time when a savior would appear to give man the opportunity of victory over the devil.

On the first day of creation God called for light and light had no choice but to appear. Philosophers and scientists can neither make nor explain light. Light is distinct from the sun and moon (Gen. 1:3,16). Where and what is it? Do you know its dwelling place (Job 38:19). Job could not explain by what way the light is parted, nor can we (Job 38:24).

A light was first in God's creation and symbolizes divine wisdom. Jehovah is "the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning" (James 1:17). Of Jesus it is said, "In him was life; and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4). Of heaven it is written, "And the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb" (Rev. 21:23).

Those who proclaim and practice the teaching of Jesus are the light of the world (Matt. 5:14). The saints of earth are to "become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye are seen as lights in the world" (Phil. 2:15). The lessons of creation are many and magnificent, but there is no truth more profound than who and where God is, and who and where we are. The grand lesson of creation is God's compelling power and our appalling weakness.

It was all done with a view to the Messiah of Jehovah. Creation was a prelude to the grace of Christ and his adoration. We cannot escape the conclusion that the overture of creation is the lily of the valley, the bright and morning star, the sun of righteousness with healing in his wings. The blinding blaze of creation sets the stage for the deep shadows of Calvary. The world's redeemer dying on a cross in the darkness is anticipated in the expectation of creation. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16). "God the mighty maker died for man the creature's sin. Just as creation anticipates the cross so does the cross anticipate the second coming. One foresees the other. Creation will reach its climax one day when Jesus comes again. The last chapter of earth will be written in blood and fire and fear and brightness and joy and victory.

The word of God is powerful. From of old there was "an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God" (2 Peter 3:5). By the means of that forceful word "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (2 Peter 3:6). The heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to youward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness, looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (2 Peter 3:7-13).

The God who made the world by his authoritative word will destroy it some day by that same decisive word. See the greatness, separateness, majesty, mercy, love and grace of God unfolded in creation and in judgment. This brings us full circle to stand in awe of the matchless word of God. "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away from him that warneth from heaven" (Heb. 12:25).

Even now he is warning from heaven. Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things that were heard, lest haply we drift away from them. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation? which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard" (Heb. 2:1-3). Harden not your heart!

Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name; that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth."

I will repeat:

God brought His words to the world using whatever means He felt like using. If it was through the dominate and capable men of that time, then I believe it. Romans 9:14-18 "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

God raised up Pharaoh because he used him to demonstrate His power and that His name would be proclaimed throughout the world - and it was. God chose to use the power the Catholic church had at the time to preserve the written word. I believe. Faith.

Power: I was not speaking of miraculous power. It simply meant that the men that were there at that time that collected letters or copies of letters and made decisions, WE believe God used them as His instruments to do that. Just like He used Pharaoh to show the world His power (God's power).

Capable men having knowledge of these inspired writings who were able to secure them and protect them. God used them the same way He used Pharaoh.

Everything you have brought up so far, is either a misunderstanding or misuse of God's Word by your pre-determined eiegesis. According to YOU, Joe. It's not a misunderstanding to me - it is as clear as it can be to me and a "few" Christians (few there be that find it...).

You said "...When I take the Lords supper - I remember Him."

"And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight." (Luke 24:30-31) During the breaking of the Bread, the Eucharist, I see with the eyes of faith Jesus' presence. I can "remember" Him without the breaking of the bread, your definition. Why did the disciples of Emmaus require the breaking of the bread to remember Jesus. They were "remembering" Him by discussing about Jesus while opening the Scriptures. Doesn't it sound silly, using your definition, that "their hearts were burning within them when He opened the Scriptures to us, but it wasn't until He broke bread with them that they 'remembered' Him"? Sounds pretty anticlimatic. And false.

This is making my head hurt! Obviously, we remember Jesus in many, many other ways. In our walk, in our speech, in our actions, in our worship. In everything we do, we remember Jesus. The partaking of His supper, Jesus says "do this in remembrance of Me", therefore, we do.

"JESUS HAS ALL AUTHORITY"

Another false dichotomy. Whoever said that the Church took away authority from Christ. Tell me, Lea, when was the last time Christ talked to you? The last time I read the Bible. I believe that every time I read the Bible - His OWN WORDS, Christ is talking to me. Have you seen Him? When I see a faithful Christian, I see Jesus. How do you know it was Him? Galatians 3:26-29 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ . 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
How do you separate "God's Word" from "Lea's word"? I only speak God's Word - where God's Word is silent, I am silent. Where God's Word speaks, I speak. Not adding to or taking away:

Deuteronomy 4:2-3 "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."

Deuteronomy 12:32 "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it."

Revelation 22:18-19 "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

You have already stated you believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God. There is no other inspired writings. Therefore, we do not add to It nor take from It.

And if we read the Pastorals, you will find a number of verses that show APOSTLES ONLY laying hands and choosing successors, such as Timothy and Titus. They were then subsequently given authority to continue this. People just didn't step up and call themselves "apostles" or "overseers"! Joe, it is clear you do not understand that we believe there is no apostolic succession. We believe the Bible teaches that Jesus' Apostles were given authority by Him in order to confirm that the Gospel they were preaching was from Him. Part of that authority was able to be passed to selected other disciples for Jesus' purposes as is recorded in the Bible. Those people that were given this authority had no authority to pass it on. While we believe some of the Apostles were elders, we also believe that an elder does not have to be an Apostle. Titus selected faithful, qualified men to be elders - not to be Apostles.

1 Timothy 3:1-13 "This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5(for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, 9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. 11 Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus." These qualifications are pretty clear.

"Again, one of the widely known requirements of Jesus' Apostles was that they were EYE WITNESSES of His life"

That is only in regards to choosing one to replace Judas! Why do you think that? Again, read the Pastorals and find Paul COMMANDING Timothy to choose overseers! When Paul lists the requirements for a bishop (overseer), where does it say anything about "witnessing Jesus' resurrection"? That requirement was only given in Acts 1 in choosing Mathias! We do not believe the Bible teaches this. Why do you say that this is only a requirement in the Acts 1 account - to be an eye witness? Was there something different about those Apostles?

Where is it recorded anywhere that God said the Bible is HIS Word??? God and God alone!! The Bible is His inspired Word.

You said "...NO - because it is not required of them to be traced back. Requirements were to be faithful men and have the values as described in Titus."

The Pastorals will disagree with you. Only men who had hands layed on them by authorized men would be considered apostolic successors, not just anyone. See previous notes 1 Timothy 3:1-13.

You said "...Every miracle recorded in the bible was easy to see and was preformed to confirm the words spoken were from God. Why can't we see it? Why is it hidden????

It is a miracle that requires FAITH. That is why Jesus speaks of faith in conjunction with the Eucharist. That is how our "eyes are opened, in the breaking of the bread"! No miracles recorded in the New Testament required FAITH!! That's the point! A miracle did not require faith on the part of the one receiving the miracle. Nor did it require faith on the part of those who witnessed the miracles. By reading the scripture, I believe (FAITH) that these miracles actually happened. I did not see them. But I believe what was written.

"your evidence relies on tradition - mine does not"

Is this what Protestants say when they are stumped? Sorry to disappoint, but I am by far not stumped. What is ironic is that Protestants rely on traditions of men, not Catholics! Catholics hold traditions of men higher than Scripture.

When will Protestants realize their errors? I would prefer you not call me a Protestant. I wear only the name "Christian". I DID realize my error - I then obeyed the gospel and became a Christian. When in Christianity has it been believed that we are to take EVERYTHING from the Bible alone? Where??? When??? Who??? Not until Luther. Before Luther, people were not allowed access to the scriptures - it was kept from them. People were kept in the dark. Thus, the "dark ages". And Luther lived to regret his teaching "for every head there is another religion". How are you going to get truth, Lea, when everyone decides for herself what is truth? The Bible is Truth - God's Word is Truth. When I read It I get Truth. When Luther read it, he easily saw the error of what was being taught. When I read, I can easily see error.

The first century Jews had the old Law written down. They studied it and followed it with every jot and tittle. Most still didn't understand it. However, a "few" did. A "few" believed John the Baptist. A "few" believed that Jesus was the Messiah. FEW!

I am shaking off the dust. (Matthew 10:14).

In Christ,

Lea

First, thank you for continuing this discussion. Perhaps it appears we are going around in circles, but don’t give up so soon. I think our motive should not be to “convert” the other, but to learn more about the other person’s points of view and reasons for why they believe as they do. I personally find the Catholic point of view the most logical and common sense one, but I like to hear other people’s points of view to examine their own beliefs. So in that vein, I will continue…

By the way, I will respond to all three subjects that we are discussing, how we know Scripture is God’s Word, Apostolic Succession, and the Eucharist. Feel free to look at my responses and choose which ever subject you would like to continue. Perhaps that would be easier, rather than going down three distinct subjects simultaneously.

1. Scripture…

You said “…Power: I was not speaking of miraculous power. It simply meant that the men that were there at that time that collected letters or copies of letters and made decisions.”

I think you need to look at this from an unbiased viewpoint. First, there were many different holy writings that were available during the time of Jesus and immediately after. There are Hindu and Buddist writings. Other Eastern religious writings. And consider the many different Gnostic writings, like the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of Paul, and so forth. All of these were in existence during the time that the 1st and 2nd Letters of Timothy were circulating. Now, with this in mind, Lea, how are you going to know which of these are really the Word of God? Remember, we can’t use our current viewpoints to determine which are the correct ones. You have said that there are no infallible people. Thus, you can be wrong. So how do you know that the Gnostic version of the Gospel is really not the correct one? How do you know that Jesus did NOT have a wife and child, as the Da Vinci Code claims? How do you know that the NT as formulated and codified by the Catholic Church really is the right books? According to you, there are no infallible people. Couldn’t the Catholic Church have been wrong, if they weren’t guided by God Himself? Maybe they left some out? Maybe they shouldn’t have left Philemon in there? Or Hebrews? Or Luke?

What is your basis for telling an agnostic, say, that the Bible really is the Word of God? You certainly are not going to convince anyone by saying “God speaks to me, so I know it is true”. That is a circular argument, full of the very real possibility of self-delusion. My argument is that without the Catholic Church, we would not know what Scriptures are. Luther himself admitted this. They are not self-attesting. There MUST be an external authority that we can trust. One that God has said He would protect. For all time. The pillar and foundation of truth can be trusted to tell us EXACTLY what is Scripture. For without this external authority, we wouldn’t really know WHAT is Scripture.

You said "...Before Luther, people were not allowed access to the scriptures - it was kept from them. People were kept in the dark. Thus, the "dark ages".

I can understand that we do not agree on particular issues, disagreements on Scripture interpretation and such. But this is ridiculous. The Church kept the people in the dark? That is why it is called the Dark Ages? That is about the craziest thing I have heard! If it wasn't for the Church, all of Europe's culture would have been destroyed. Only they kept it. Only they continued to provide some order in people's lives during this chaotic time period. I can tell you that your history is incorrect. The Church has never kept the Bible from people. First, they were very expensive. You think every peasant (if they could even read) could afford one? And next, the Church had to protect the Word as it was written. To many “Reformers” were intent on changing God’s Word to suit their twisted ideas, such as Luther changing Romans 3:28 to say “faith ALONE”. Can you understand why the Church would protect the Scriptures from such people? If the Church didn’t, we would have a hard time even knowing what truly was written. This sounds more like some Protestant paranoia then legitimate accusations. Ridiculous. The Church is tasked with spreading the Gospel, not hiding it!

I asked “…How do you separate "God's Word" from "Lea's word"?

You said “… I only speak God's Word - where God's Word is silent, I am silent. Where God's Word speaks, I speak. Not adding to or taking away

Why do you confine God’s Words only to those that are written in the Bible? The Bible itself tells Christians to “hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by US, either by WORD OF MOUTH OR BY LETTER” (2 Thess 2:15). Lea, why do you keep ignoring this? I have asked you this question before. The Bible itself has given us two rules of faith. One written, one oral. Where was this command rescinded? Where does Scripture say that it now overrides all oral tradition? Interpretation of the Scriptures according to how the Apostles meant them to speak are considered Oral Tradition. ALL heresy uses the same written Word of God. The ignorant and the unstable twist it to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16). Peter wrote of this possibility. Tell me, why would God allow His Scripture to be twisted WITHOUT an authority to tell us what it really means? What good is God’s Word if we don’t understand its intended meaning?

You said “…Therefore, we do not add to It nor take from It. (Scriptures)

We are the same. However, you seem to be confused in what Apostolic Tradition is. It does not “add” or “take away” from Scripture, but enhances it. It protects its intended meaning. It guarantees that Scripture is read properly. Don’t you think God would want to protect the meaning of His Scriptures?

You said “…Catholics hold traditions of men higher than Scripture.

Perhaps in your experience of other uninformed Catholics, you have been led to believe that, but the Catechism does not teach that at all.

“Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the SAME divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own always, to the close of the age. (CCC 80)

“As a result, the Church, to whom the transmission AND interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy Scripture ALONE. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored WITH EQUAL SENTIMENTS OF DEVOTION AND REVERANCE. (CCC 82).

As can be seen, Catholics give a special place to BOTH Tradition and Scripture. Since they come from God equally, they CANNOT CONTRADICT.

2. The Eucharist.

You said "...Obviously, we remember Jesus in many, many other ways. In our walk, in our speech, in our actions, in our worship. In everything we do, we remember Jesus. The partaking of His supper, Jesus says "do this in remembrance of Me", therefore, we do.

So why is Jesus command at the Last Supper any different than His other commands, such as Mt 28:20, to preach and teach and remember all that I taught you? Are you saying they mean the same thing? The Last Supper and the Church’s Mission is the same? And why did Luke mention that the two disciples from Emmaus did not recognize Jesus until the breaking of the bread? Isn’t it obvious that “having the Scriptures opened to them” and “breaking the bread” do not mean the same thing? I think that Jesus left a particular gift, more precious than the manna from heaven, one that relies on faith. Yesterday, someone brought up the point in one of your devotional posts about coincidences being from God. I agree. Here is another one for you.

Today, the Lectionary reading of the Gospel is Mark 10:13-16. Jesus says “let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs. Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it.”

To me, I believe Jesus is telling us that we must be trustful, as a child. To not try to rationalize the faith. To take God’s Word as we hear it, and not try to twist its meaning into something more suitable to our own desires. Trust in Jesus – even if we don’t quite understand it. Just as Peter did in John 6. He didn’t have a clue what Jesus meant when Jesus said “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, you shall not have eternal life”. He acted as a child. Yes, Lord, whatever you say. I don’t know what you mean, but I will take your word for it.

It then becomes clear as we move along into the Gospels – the Last Supper. THIS IS MY BODY. Oh, so we must do THIS in memory of Jesus. Take the bread, break it, and eat it. Remembering that Jesus said that it was His Body. Whenever we proclaim the death of Jesus in this manner, we are making present His death and resurrection. We are doing something much greater than simply remembering what He did 2000 years ago. The disciples regarded what Jesus did at the Last Supper as something much more than a simple act of remembrance. Why did the disciples of Emmaus not recognize Jesus until the breaking of the Bread? Because Jesus makes Himself known – it IS His Body!

You said “…No miracles recorded in the New Testament required FAITH!! That's the point! A miracle did not require faith on the part of the one receiving the miracle. Nor did it require faith on the part of those who witnessed the miracles.

Wrong! The majority of the miracles required faith! I will post only a few:

A leper who came to Jesus knelt before Him saying ‘Lord, if you choose, you can make me clean’ Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him saying, ‘I do choose. Be made clean!” (Mat 8:2-3); (Mk 1:40-45); (Lk 5:12-15)

Great crowds came to Him, bringing with them the lame, the maimed, the blind, the mute, and many others. They put them at His feet, and cured them. (Mt 15:30); (Lk 7:19-22)

A leader of the synagogue came in and knelt before Him, saying ‘my daughter has just died; but come and lay your hands on her, and she will live’…Then, suddenly a woman who had been suffering from hemorrhages for 12 years came up behind him and touched the fringe of his cloak for she said to herself “If I only touch His cloak, I will be made well”…As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying loudly, “have mercy on us, Son of David!”…Do you believe that I am able to do this? They said to Him “Yes Lord”…after they had gone away, a demonic who was mute was brought to him. And when the demon had been cast out, the one who had been mute spoke. (4 miracles in quick succession, all requiring faith for them to come to Jesus to cure them) (Mt 9:18-33); (Mk 5:21-43); (Lk 8:40-56)

I could go on and on. It is obvious that Jesus desired that the people have faith in Him and His abilities to cure and heal them of their sins and sickness. Didn’t the Pharisees attribute Jesus miracles to demons? Seeing a miracle is no proof that one will believe in them. Consider Lourdes. Consider Fatima. There are many other such scientifically proven miracles of the Eucharist. Do you believe in them? Why not? They require faith. Your point is lost on me. Jesus requires faith of His followers. Faith is a major component of John 6. It is by faith that we see Christ in the appearance of bread and wine. And the Church teaches, always, that it is something more than a mere “remembrance”.

3. Apostolic Succession.

You said “…We believe the Bible teaches that Jesus' Apostles were given authority by Him in order to confirm that the Gospel they were preaching was from Him. Part of that authority was able to be passed to selected other disciples for Jesus' purposes as is recorded in the Bible.

Agree.

You said “…Those people that were given this authority had no authority to pass it on. While we believe some of the Apostles were elders, we also believe that an elder does not have to be an Apostle. Titus selected faithful, qualified men to be elders - not to be Apostles.

I disagree! The Apostles DID have authority to ordain successors. The Scripture is clear over and over again that Paul and the other Apostles laid hands and SENT others to teach and preach (Apostle means one who is sent.). Jesus gave the original 12 Apostles the authority to teach and preach the Gospel. What makes you think that after they died, the Holy Spirit would no longer desire this function within the Church???

As to no authority, then why:

As you know and as God is our witness, we (Paul, Silvanus and Timothy) never came with words of flattery or with a pretext for greed. Nor did we seek praise from mortals, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as APOSTLES (notice the plural. Timothy, Paul and Silvanus are Apostles) of Christ (Timothy and Silvanus are apostles – one who was sent.…) (1 Thes 2: 6,7)

For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you (Timothy) through the LAYING OF MY (Paul) HANDS. (power was passed to Timothy. He didn’t give it to himself) (2 Tim 1:6)

I (Paul) left you (Titus) behind in Crete for this reason, so that you should put in order what remained to be done, and (YOU) SHOULD APPOINT ELDERS in every town, AS I DIRECTED YOU….He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance WITH THE TEACHING (not his own interpretation) so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and REFUTE THOSE WHO CONTRADICT IT (no private interpretation) (Titus 1:5, 9)

Then, after fasting and praying, they (THE ELDERS of Antioch) LAID THEIR HANDS on them and SENT THEM (Saul and Barnabas) off. So, being sent out by the HOLY SPIRIT (the elders and the Holy Spirit are sending Saul and Barnabas)…(Acts 13:3-4).

And after THEY (Paul and Barnabas) APPOINTED ELDERS for them in each church (notice, the individual church did not appoint their own leaders), with prayer and fasting they ENTRUSTED THEM TO THE LORD in whom they had come to believe (Acts 14:23)

YOU (Ephesian elders appointed by Paul previously) KEEP WATCH over yourselves AND OVER ALL THE FLOCK, of which the HOLY SPIRIT HAS MADE YOU OVERSEERS, TO SHEPHERD THE CHURCH OF GOD that He obtained with the blood of His own Son (Acts 20:28)

The gifts He (the Spirit) gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of the ministry for building up the Body of Christ (notice, no mention of Scriptures. The gifts given to the members of the Body are used to build it up). (Eph 4:11)

Do not neglect the gift that is within you (Timothy) which was GIVEN TO YOU THROUGH PROPHECY WITH THE LAYING OF HANDS BY THE COUNCIL OF ELDERS (not by his own self) (1 Tim 4:14)

Do not ordain anyone (Timothy) hastily. (1 Tim 5:22)

There are more – but why continue. It is quite obvious that you are mistaken. Not only does Scripture refute you, but the CONTINUOUS writings and beliefs of the Church as recorded by the Early Church Fathers tells us that they also considered Apostolic Succession normal and the will of God. I could quote dozens of Fathers that say this. Like the Eucharist, it is virtually unanimous until the Protestant Reformation. I would seriously reconsider your stance that is in opposition to both the Scriptures and the teachings of the Church for 2000 years!

Common sense would also show you wrong. Why would Christ and the Holy Spirit protect ONLY the teachings of the 12 Apostles? He certainly knows that the Church will not fall against the Gates of Hell. He will guard them and protect their teachings. Man alone cannot do this. Man alone is not infallible. Man alone will begin to rationalize and decide for themselves what they thought that God meant by the Eucharist, or whatever. And they would be wrong. The ONLY way we can know God’s teachings as given to the first Christians is by the Holy Spirit’s promise of infallibility to the Church.

You cited “…1 Timothy 3:1-13 These qualifications are pretty clear. “

Yes. I brought this up to show you that bishops, the successors of the Apostles, did not need to be eye-witnesses of Christ Himself. Because the future qualifications do not add them in there! Where does 1 Timothy 3:1-13 say anything about being an eye witness? Yet, these are qualifications for overseers, bishops. These are the apostles successors. Timothy didn’t see Christ. Silvanus didn’t see Christ. Yet, they are Apostles of Christ. Bishops/overseers as appointed by the Holy Spirit working through the elders of the Church, as I cite above. Are you saying that the Church was wrong to do this, and they were confused about the Apostles’ wishes to continue the teachings of Christ in this manner?

You said “…it is as clear as it can be to me and a "few" Christians (few there be that find it...).”

Although we disagree on a few items, some being quite important, I choose not to judge whether ANYONE is a “Christian” or not. Jesus tells us in Matthew 25 in two separate parables that the love that we share with others will determine our final place after we die. How much we give in to the graces of the Holy Spirit. These are the people of the Church. Not those enrolled in the Catholic Church, or those who take on your particular Bible interpretations. God will judge us based on what we know and how we responded to His Love. I find nowhere in the Scriptures where intellect will get us into heaven. Do you agree?

Brother in Christ

Joe

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