Posted on 04/22/2005 4:48:53 AM PDT by maryz
In that book, Joseph Ratzinger describes how he prefers Augustine to Thomas Aquinas, "whose crystal-clear logic seemed to me to be too closed in on itself, too impersonal and ready-made." Anyone familiar with Augustine and Aquinas would at least pause to reflect on this remark from a man characterized in the press as an inquisitor, rottweiler, enforcer.
Augustine is the more mystical personality, closer in some ways to the "new age" impulses of our times. In the writings of Augustine, arguably the most complex mind Christianity has produced, the exercise of deep faith carries with it the possibility of what I would call a "high" experience in one's pursuit of and relationship to God. That was the Church of the 5th century. In our time, religion has become freighted with correct politics (the Left) or correct morality (the Right), rather than the substance of one's relationship with God.
I get the impression that Joseph Ratzinger--who reveres the early, transcendent Church Fathers (its "founding fathers")--is at heart more a vibrant 5th-century Christian than a stale 19th-century dogmatist; as conceivably was John Paul II, who often let himself slip into an Upward-directed reverie in public. In short, Benedict XVI looks to be very different from the stolid, authoritarian German described this week in the public prints.
(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).
SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: "If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).
SEVENTH SESSION, CANONS ON BAPTISM: "If anyone says that in the Roman Church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA" (Canons on Baptism, Canon 3).
Let me help you:
If anyone says that, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, man can be justified before God by his own works, whether they were done by his natural powers or by the light of the teaching of the [Mosaic] Law: let him be anathema.
Compare to your previous post:
Anyone that thinks their good works or a conservative position or law keeping will come anywhere near heaven with out coming to Christ as Savior by faith will be spending time in eternity with those false teachers
Looks pretty close to me.
Then there's canon number two:
If anyone says that divine grace is given through Jesus Christ merely to facilitate man's living justly and meriting everlasting life, as if he could accomplish both, although without great difficulty, by his free will without grace: let him be anathema.
You didn't quote that one either. Why not?
And finally, there's canon 3:
If anyone says that without the Holy Spirit's prevenient inspiration and without his help man can believe, hope, and love, or be repentent as is required if the grace of justification is to be given to him: let him be anathema.
You didn't cite that one, either.
Pelagianism (salvation by good works without grace and faith) and semi-Pelagianism (that justification begins on man's initiative, not God's) were both condemned by the Catholic Church a millenium before John Calvin saw the light of day. That condemnation remains in force.
Absolutely, 100%, completely correct. I salute you, sir. God bless and have a wonderful night.
Judging by the moral support and positive comments of many Evangelical Protestants about JPII and now the new pope, I'd say that it's not something they "need to learn", but know already. Secularism, relativism, the culture of death, whatever you want to call it, there is still only one Enemy.
Catholics have salvation by faith PLUS ...
NO the enemy are those that are the enemy of Christ and the enemy of the gospel.
I do not worry about "secularism" that is nothing but a diversion
I believe men need more than "special help"..
Expalain to Jude how every catholic baby is saved in baptism... and from then on it is his to loose.. so he needs a little "special" help from God to "persevere."and to KEEP that salvation... if the special help does not keep them perfectly they get to work it off in Purgatory
Words mean things... and they mean different things to different people
When you say grace it does not mean the same thing I mean, when you say Baptism you do not mean the same thing I do..
The problem Jude has is he is reading things and attributing the same meaning to them in Catholic speak as they do in Protestant speak
Actually this is not a "heretical" Catholic belief, it is stated quite clearly that this is the case in the Bible: "Beloved, you have always shown yourselves obedient; and now that I am at a distance, not less but much more than when I am present, you must work to earn your salvation, in anxious fear." Philippians 2:12
Fair to say RnMon that you should be doing a little trembling because not all those who call out the Lord's name will be saved. Faith with out works is mere presumption. Works with out faith leads to death, as the Council of Trent so clearly stated. Think it over, RnMon, your eternal salvation depends upon getting this one right.
[snort!]
That snort was a laugh. "Cane River Revival of 18xx..." Heh heh.
I don't think he phrased it as well as he could have. I suspect he meant something more like the "new age" impulses indicate a real craving -- not that "new age" crap will satisfy it. I'm thinking of something I read years ago about nutritional deficiencies -- the only one I remember is that craving ice indicates an iron deficiency. I think he means something more like craving "new age" indicates an Augustine deficiency!
That is not a salvation scripture. That speaks to the Christian walk
Note he did not say the HOPE of your salvation, the men already were saved. The audience was the church
Protestants read the verse in context not isolation
Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
This is about the works that flow from our salvation , there is not "or else" in that verse
That the saved have works that come from that salvation and not works that bring it
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Read the words of Jesus on the "works" that a saved man does... they are all Gods...
Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Fair to say RnMon that you should be doing a little trembling because not all those who call out the Lord's name will be saved. Faith with out works is mere presumption. Works with out faith leads to death, as the Council of Trent so clearly stated. Think it over, RnMon, your eternal salvation depends upon getting this one right.
Lets look at this scripture, the text you attempt to use actually condemns salvation through works
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The scene is a man that DID GOOD WORKS and thought that gave him the right to call Jesus Lord..
Jesus set him straight ... his works and calling Him Lord with out doing the will of that Father did not save Him
What is the will of the Father ? Obviously not works .
What does scripture say it is?
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Romans 10-13 Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved
I tremble for the lost that believe they can ever make themselves pleasing to God or worthy of salvation.. they will hear "I never Knew ye"
My salvation rests only on the accomplished work of Christ.. the works of men are filthy rags ... Your salvation depends on you" getting it right "
Luther was speaking rather ignorantly, as a matter of fact, when he created the image of Aquinas as a lockstep Aristotelian who didn't care much about the Bible. He did not know Aquinas well in the original, but relied on late medieval nominalist commentators who present Aquinas as agreeing with them as far as possible.
P.S. I'm a Lutheran too, and love Luther. He did however put his pants on one leg at a time like everyone else, which he would have been the first to admit.
selectsmart.com/PHILOSOPHY/
My results are
St. Augustine 100%
Aquinas 86%
Kant 69%
That is cool.
My top 3 results were
1. St. Augustine (100%)
2. Plato (88%)
3. Aquinas (80%)
ping!
At the other end:
3% Hobbes -- Seems kind of high! What did I do wrong? :-)
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