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To: gbcdoj
Didn't you say on the other thread that no "rational human beings" would accept HV based on the argument from authority?

I don't recall saying exactly that. I don't accept the arguments of Humanae Vitae. I tell Catholics what I am supposed to tell them as a representative of the Church. But I don't defend Humanae Vitae or the Church's teaching on contraception, because I can't do it.

The Church says that couples may regulate the size of their families. That means that couples may purposely engage in sexual intercourse with the express intention and physical means to avoid conception.

The method (NFP or non-abortafacient contraception) is secondary.

44 posted on 04/15/2005 7:30:56 PM PDT by sinkspur (If you want unconditional love with skin, and hair and a warm nose, get a shelter dog.)
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To: sinkspur
The Church says that couples may regulate the size of their families. That means that couples may purposely engage in sexual intercourse with the express intention and physical means to avoid conception.

Ah, but that is the entire difference, according to HV: "In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process."

You may be interested in this article, which was posted here on FR before. It makes a pretty convincing case for a real distinction between NFP and non-abortifacient contraception. (Emphasis original:)

In other words, the Pope's condemnation applies exclusively to conjugal acts carried out during what the spouses understand to be the wife's fertile period, but which they deliberately pervert (whether by 'withdrawal', condoms, pills, or any other technique) so as to deprive them of that fertility.

49 posted on 04/15/2005 7:36:25 PM PDT by gbcdoj (In the world you shall have distress. But have confidence. I have overcome the world. ~ John 16:33)
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To: sinkspur
The Church says that couples may regulate the size of their families.

Amazing how many Catholics leave out the qualifier "for serious resons"

But I don't defend Humanae Vitae or the Church's teaching on contraception, because I can't do it.

Why? Is your problem with children or natural law?

55 posted on 04/15/2005 8:33:50 PM PDT by Judica me
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To: sinkspur

You read Humanae Vitae with the eye of a legalist but you can't defend it? That means you don't grasp its argument or you reject it. Which is it? I hope it is the former.


71 posted on 04/15/2005 9:50:34 PM PDT by RobbyS (JMJ)
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To: sinkspur

"I don't accept the arguments of Humanae Vitae. I tell Catholics what I am supposed to tell them as a representative of the Church. But I don't defend Humanae Vitae or the Church's teaching on contraception, because I can't do it."

HV itself does a perfectly good job.


84 posted on 04/16/2005 6:34:30 AM PDT by SausageDog
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To: sinkspur
couples may purposely engage in sexual intercourse with the express intention and physical means to avoid conception.

This is false. The Church teaches that marital intercourse must always be open to the possibility of life. Apart from absolutely foreclosing any recourse to physical means, this means that even if there is a desire to avoid conception through licit means, this may not be the couple's specific goal.

97 posted on 04/16/2005 8:09:09 AM PDT by Romulus (Golly...suddenly I feel strangely SEDEVACANTIST!)
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To: sinkspur
But I don't defend Humanae Vitae or the Church's teaching on contraception, because I can't do it.

Then you ought to resign.

134 posted on 04/16/2005 12:58:24 PM PDT by Petronski (I thank God Almighty for a most remarkable blessing: John Paul the Great.)
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To: sinkspur

Learn the Theology of the Body, start with West's "for Beginners" book, pick up the CDs at www.nakedwithoutshame.com, then move up to West's "explained" book then perhaps you can grasp the raw text of the Holy Father's audiences.
We need people who not only know it themselves but can teach it, because it is the cure for the culture of death. That's his legacy to us.
There is also a show running on EWTN that is going thru it. They haven't gotten very far so I can't really predict how well they are going to explain it.
If we could replace the contraceptive mentality that is being taught, even in parochial schools, with this beautiful teaching it would ignite a fire in the Church and in this society.
In our archdiocese we are trying to do just that, teaching parents and preparing catechists to go to the Catholic high schools


142 posted on 04/16/2005 4:36:47 PM PDT by kjvail (Judica me Deus, et discerne causam meam de gente non sancta)
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To: sinkspur
The Church says that couples may regulate the size of their families. That means that couples may purposely engage in sexual intercourse with the express intention and physical means to avoid conception.

This is a bald-faced lie, you deceptive AmChurch "deacon." This is NOT Catholic teaching! This is apostacy!

The method (NFP or non-abortafacient contraception) is secondary.

This is proof of rank heresy.

Why don't you do your soul a favor and either cease and desist claiming to be a Catholic deacon or cease and desist in your open public persistent dissent? Does your diocese know you publicly advocate such rank heresy?

146 posted on 04/17/2005 2:11:52 PM PDT by St. Johann Tetzel ( † Theresa Marie Schindler, Martyr for the Gospel of Life, pray for us. †)
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