Posted on 04/15/2005 4:34:46 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
In church's dreams, Vatican II never happened
April 13, 2005
BY ANDREW GREELEY
The American TV networks spent huge sums of money and sent scores of people to Rome last week. Characteristically, they spent little time or energy on research and hence provided weak and stereotypical journalism, limited to questions about married priests, female priests, gays and sexual abuse. They missed completely the most critical issue for the church in the 21st century -- Vatican Council II and the changes it created.
Many, if not most, of the cardinal electors would tell you that the council was an incident, a bump in the road. The council fathers wrote some useful documents. There was misguided enthusiasm after the council, but Pope John Paul II sternly reimposed order on the church. The council is interesting mainly now as a historical matter.
Leaders lost their nerve
They could not be more wrong. The council was a revolutionary event that had a profound impact on Catholics who lived through it and indirectly on their children, who have barely heard about it. It's still the green dragon lurking in the Sistine Chapel even if the electors can't quite see it.
The model of unchanging Catholicism in response to the Reformation, the Enlightenment and the French Revolution assumed that the church would not change, should not change, could not change. Suddenly the laity and lower clergy experienced changes in liturgy, in Scripture interpretation, in theories of religious liberty, in attitudes toward other Christians and Jews, in trust of the modern world. The structures -- patterns of behavior and supporting motivations -- that had supported the church for several centuries collapsed.
The council fathers may not have foreseen this collapse, but they did vote for the changes (in overwhelming numbers) and hence the documents themselves and the action of the fathers (presumably in Catholic theology guided by the Holy Spirit) were responsible for the destabilization.
It was, as it seemed then, a new spring for the church, now flexible, joyful and confidently open to the world. However, the ferment frightened some of the leaders who lost their nerve and responded the only way they knew how -- repression. They issued new orders without any serious attempt to explain the reasons for them. They silenced some theologians. They appointed reactionary bishops, who were not always the brightest or most humane. They investigated seminaries. Their mood changed from optimism to grim warnings and solemn denunciations. The church, for a few years a bright light on the mountaintop, had once again become an embattled fortress afraid of the modern world.
House of cards collapsed
The leaders confidently expected that the laity would do what they were told. They could not have been more wrong, nor their strategy more counterproductive. The laity and the lower clergy for the most part simply ignored them and went about creating new structures in which Catholics would affiliate with the church on their own terms. Resignations from the priesthood and the collapse of priestly vocations began only after the desperate attempts to slow down change turned the mood of the council years sour. The present crisis of the credibility of church leadership arose precisely from mistaken attempts to reassert the old leadership style. The problem is not so much the council as restorationist attempts to undo it.
To be fair, no one realized how potentially frail was the so-called confident church of 1950, both in America and around the world. A push from a handful of conciliar documents and the whole house of cards collapsed. For many leaders who had known the seeming serenity of the pre-conciliar church, it was unthinkable that the structures had disappeared overnight and with them their own credibility. So they fell back on them to prevent a disappearance that had already occurred.
The restorationist style continues here in Rome, though it should be clear that it doesn't work. Despite the late pope's efforts to reassert the church's traditional sexual ethic, acceptance of it has declined everywhere.
Few willing to admit truth
In the pre-conclave atmosphere, it is necessary to pretend that this is not true. Or if there is a bit of truth in it, the proper response of the new pope should be yet tougher repression, more vigorous restoration. Almost no one is willing to admit even to themselves that the leadership strategy since 1970 has caused most of the problems in the church -- the decline of vocations and church attendance and the alienation of the young.
Vatican II is the dragon in their midst that they cannot see and they wish would go away. Unfortunately they have not, will not learn that you cannot repeal an ecumenical council and cancel its effects.
you describe my parish as well, much larger young families and much more traditional Masses, with actual right and wrong preached from the pulpit. i very much disagree with the assertion that younger families are MORE liberal than their parents families. that is not what i see at all.
a good Jewish friend of mine was aghast to learn that Catholics are not TAUGHT the contents of the papal encyclicals or the Catechism. He took it as a given that faithful practicing Catholics KNEW what their Church's doctrine is. sadly, they don't, unless they search it out on their own. my oldest daughter attends an all girls Catholic HS in Washington DC, the nun who taught the class, was astounded when my daughter walked in and asked to be permitted to read from the Catechism in re; abortion/euthanasia/death penalty, after a class discussion on those topics the previous class period which had in no way REFERENCED the Catechism. My daughter was permitted to read from the Catechism and of course now the nun thinks she is "RELIGIOUS" and a "SERIOUS RELIGION STUDENT" because of it. I found it astounding that it required a student from the class to refer to the operative documents when discussing the Church's doctrine on those issues.
I'd go to a Latin Mass if I could, but the closest is about 1 1/2 hours each way, and for a lot of different reasons, that could not work for me. You're fortunate to be in that situation.
Maybe some you will wake up, hopefully before it's too late.
Oh fiddle-faddle, sink. Absolute codswallop!
You wish!!
In my experience, it's exactly the reverse. Long suffering Catholics in the pews for the last 30-40 years have heroically sat through homily after insipid homily about how the miltary is evil, big business is wicked and how we need to hug each other more and have let it all drift in one ear and out the other. They have gone home with their children, knelt down, and said their prayers and devotions and been sustained in their faith by the knowledge that the polyester clad hippie who lived in their parish rectory had absolutely nothing in common with the Pope and those united with him.
All of us who've survived the last half century of apostasy have done so by completely ignoring the activist priests and bishops who've been around us and focusing instead on the often beleaguered and abandoned Holy Father.
You are a provocateur. Catholics are not OK with women priests and you know it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
"It would also be a good idea to find out why "Catholic" clergy who dissent are not run out of the clergy. We can do quite well without them."
I asked Fr. Most that one time. He said the Vatican is afraid of a declared schism. What we have now is an undeclared schism.
"Many couples who practice Natural Family Planning state that it brings them closer together spiritually. In other words, it is a blessing in their lives, not a cross or burden."
My husband and I took NFP classes after about 3 years of marriage. It completely turned our lives around. What was possibly heading for separation turned into a blessed 10 year anniversary last month. Oh, and baby number 3 on the way!
I cringe when I talk to family and friends that say they aren't having anymore kids by way of surgery, etc. It just breaks my heart! My husband and I weren't exactly planning on having another one but sometimes God knows more than we do!! We are thrilled and didn't realize how happy we could be at the prospect of another. It's not always easy leaving things like this open to God but he definitely knows what's best for us.
If anyone reading this has never taken NFP classes, I HIGHLY recommend them! I wish all couples in the Catholic Church had to take them as part of their pre-marriage classes.
Thanks for the kind words and wishes. I appreciate it.
More conservative than you on these questions? That says little. Your comparison proves it.
Perfect.
Then you ought to resign.
Ummmnhhh....what do you suppose GBCDOJ was hinting at when he asked "what can WE do about it?"
>>that is not what i see at all.<<
Me neither. And the difference between liberal Catholics and orthodox/conservative Catholics is that like pro-abortion people, they are not making enough babies to replenish themselves. Conservative Catholics are having 4 or more babies and every one of them are there every Sunday, Holiday and Holy Day of Obligation!
i am convinced it is regional and directly related to the strength and orientation of the bishop. my diocese is relatively conservative, and as you and i have discussed in the past, there are dioceses that are utter abominations and the masses reflect that.
"Vatican II never happened? I wish..."
... and is continuing to happen. The next pope (including Ratzinger) will endlessly bore us with how the work of Vatican II will go on and how it is bearing fruit. I already know the script!
>> there are dioceses that are utter abominations and the masses reflect that<<
Truer words were never typed!
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