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Eastern Orthodox at Pope's Funeral? (Vanity)

Posted on 04/07/2005 6:14:48 PM PDT by Squire of St. Michael

I'm curious to know which, if any, of the Eastern Orthodox Patriarchs will be attending the pope's funeral or sending delegations. If anyone has an insight, please post! Thanks.


TOPICS: Catholic; Eastern Religions; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: johnpaulii
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To: Agrarian

Yup; certainly to the first and I think also to the second. He still is.


81 posted on 04/09/2005 12:07:45 PM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: Conservative til I die
No, it's because they belong to the Eastern Rite, different to the rite that Roman Catholics (and the few other non-Roman Western Rite Catholics) belong to.

Forgot to ping you to my #72.

82 posted on 04/09/2005 12:53:00 PM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: Kolokotronis; Conservative til I die; Romulus; Agrarian; kosta50
Ultimately, it may be the existence of these churches which will prevent any reunion between Orthodoxy and Rome.

I don't understand this statement, especially in light of the information contained in Orientalium Ecclesiarum, to which I linked in post #72. Did you read it?

83 posted on 04/09/2005 1:00:05 PM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: NYer

Oh yes, I've read it several times, in fact each time you have posted it. The problem lies with the Eastern European churches which were formed as part of the expansion of the Papacy and various Roman Catholic monarchs into the canonical territory of, mostly, Moscow. Their purpose was to seduce the local Orthodox population into an obedience to Rome and their new, foreign Roman Catholic overlords. This is not at all how the other Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian or Thomistic/Oriental Churches came into being and thus those Churches which indeed should be considered particular Churches, fully sui juris, within the The Church are not even remotely a problem and in fact are in many instances in their relations with Orthodoxy, an example of what a reunited Church might look like.

In all honesty, NYer, I suspect that if you spoke with any Maronite or Melkite priest or hierarch who felt he could be completely candid (and maybe they couldn't), they would tell you the same thing.


84 posted on 04/09/2005 1:21:21 PM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis
I'm not sure what in #72 would change how the existence of the Eastern Catholic churches affects the relationship between Orthodox and Catholics.

You would have to point out the statements that you are referring to that you believe should be revelatory to the Orthodox Church, but I'm not sure how constructive it would be to go on on this topic.

I read all of #72, and there is nothing new there -- it does improve the standing of the 2% of Eastern Catholics within the Roman Catholic world compared to the "bad old days" of 3rd class citizenship for Uniates within the Roman world, but there is nothing of interest to Orthodoxy in this discourse, since nothing in it talks about the Orthodox Churches. It is not talking about the Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, for instance, it is talking about the Byzantine Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria -- different Patriarch, different church. The Romans have their own parallel Eastern patriarchs in place in virtually all the places where the Orthodox have Patriarchs (in fact they probably have more Patriarchs than the Orthodox do!), and that's who #72 is talking about.

What is important in Orthodox-Catholic dialogue is that we have cordial relationships. Talking about reunion is extremely premature, will not happen in our or our children's lifetimes (and depending on what Rome does, as K. says, it could turn into 700 years or longer), and dwelling on it only leads to frustration.

As a final note, as a long time FR member (although relative newcomer to the religion forum), I need to get this off my chest: Frankly, I think it is silly to have to avoid the U-word, and I would think that on FR, of all places, we would eschew such silly ecclesiastical versions of PC-speak and not get bent out of shape and be hypersensitive, on both sides.

From an Orthodox perspective, *we* are the "Eastern Catholics", and we could, if we chose, get offended by the fact that the Romans use that term for the Uniates. I don't care if we are called schismatics by the Romans -- from their perspective, that's exactly what we are, so why should I expect them to say otherwise?

I'm happy to continue the conversation, but horse is probably dead.

85 posted on 04/09/2005 1:40:15 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian; NYer

"I'm happy to continue the conversation, but horse is probably dead"

And as the Greeks say, "You can't make a dead horse f*rt!"


86 posted on 04/09/2005 1:46:56 PM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: Kolokotronis
"This is not at all how the other Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, Armenian or Thomistic/Oriental Churches came into being..."

At least some of these churches owe their beginnings to the political events in the Middle East of the Crusades or to the influences of various degrees of Western colonialism, so there are more parallels to Uniatism than perhaps meets the eye, even if the parallels may be more distant in time. Also, some of these Eastern Rites are so tiny that they are absolutely dwarved by the church they are supposedly competing with, and that makes the situation less contentious.

And in each and every instance, the Roman church convinced some people and or clergy to leave the jurisdiction of their church and come under the jurisdiction of Rome. Parallel church structures were set up in direct competition with the "original." Ask the Armenians what they think about the Armenians who joined up with Rome...

The only situations in which nearly entire dioceses went over to Rome was when the power of the state was there to enforce it, as in some corners of the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

It is good that the Melkites and the Antiochian Patriarchate seem to get along, but this is an anomalous situation that is unlikely to be duplicated elsewhere. Rome cannot have it both ways: they cannot both have parallel churches that compete with the Orthodox *and* expect that the Orthodox churches being "paralleled" are going to be excited about having warm relationships.

87 posted on 04/09/2005 1:53:46 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian

Well, the Maronites were never out of communion with Rome and the Melkites, they do owe their existance to politics of a sort. When the Saracens attacked, the Byzantines stayed home knitting and the Crusaders helped without any pre conditions so they joined up with Rome. The situation with the various monophysite "reunions" with Rome are of course another matter entirely and relatively recent as these things go. I sincerely doubt they have ever been envisioned as a wedge against Orthodoxy. Western colonialism had a terrible effect especially on the Maronites and to a lesser extent on the Melkites, with the connivance of the Vatican, but the Melkites have pretty much shed that and the Maronites are working on it.

"Rome cannot have it both ways: they cannot both have parallel churches that compete with the Orthodox *and* expect that the Orthodox churches being "paralleled" are going to be excited about having warm relationships."

What's that smell? :)


88 posted on 04/09/2005 2:02:58 PM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: Kolokotronis
Their purpose was to seduce the local Orthodox population into an obedience to Rome

From all that I have read, which is limited, it is my understanding that the Catholic Church in Russia ministers to those catholics who came into the country at different periods. Admittedly, this is not a subject I have researched very extensively.

I suspect that if you spoke with any Maronite or Melkite priest or hierarch who felt he could be completely candid (and maybe they couldn't), they would tell you the same thing.

Indeed that response was given to me last month ;-D. The bishop affirmed to my pastor that the Maronites do not 'evangelize', especially amongst other catholics. Which of course brings us back to the topic at hand. IF the Catholic Church does not evangelize in Russia but Orthodox christians wish to join the Catholic Church, why would the Orthodox Church have a problem with that? It's a personal freedom to choose one's religion, is it not? Does the Russian Orthodox Church have such power over the state to prevent the establishment of other christian churches in Russia?

89 posted on 04/09/2005 2:54:05 PM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: NYer
NYer, the problem isn't with the Maronites, but with the Eastern Europeans. As for what is going on in Russia, well the Roman Church hasn't been outlawed there and I haven't heard of anyone going to jail yet for joining up so whether the Russian Church has the power to tell the Kremlin to shut it down or not isn't an issue.

The fact is the whole purpose of existence of the Uniate Churches in Eastern Europe has been to convert Orthodox to fealty to Rome. That isn't the case with Maronites. I know Maronites don't proselytize. Ask the priest about the Eastern Europeans and read his body language if you don't get a straight answer (though from what I hear of your priest, you will get a straight answer, I suspect).
90 posted on 04/09/2005 3:21:27 PM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: Cronos

Your tone is very nasty. Why is that?


91 posted on 04/09/2005 3:49:54 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (LIFE SPRINGS ETERNAL!!)
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To: muir_redwoods
OH my golly!! What a disgrace.

I am sorry for your loss. I too am a widower.

I have not been to any funerals for a couple of years but I remember one time many years ago that a fellow died, a close friend, who was a collector of handguns. He was a retired Army officer and quite the firearms expert... mostly of handguns.

Anyway, nobody hit on his widow but some unknown guy approached her as she was leaving the Cemetery and asked WHEN she would be putting his collection up for sale.

Well, she is such a lady that she just smiled very faintly and said NEVER, her sons would be keeping them ALL.

I was right there and was flabbergasted by that guy's behavior.

Bad behavior knows no bounds... even at a funeral.

92 posted on 04/09/2005 4:10:12 PM PDT by Lion in Winter (LIFE SPRINGS ETERNAL!!)
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To: Agrarian; Kolokotronis
Again, at a Divine Liturgy, I'm not sure anyone has precedence over the diocesan bishop (permanent or acting) of the church where the Liturgy is being served

The Church is where the bishop is. All bishops are of equal "rank" -- so that would be, I have no doubt, the way it is: a diocesan bishop would conduct the service.

93 posted on 04/09/2005 6:24:57 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Agrarian

Right, except for the matter of "presvyia".


94 posted on 04/09/2005 6:27:20 PM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: NYer
"IF the Catholic Church does not evangelize in Russia but Orthodox christians wish to join the Catholic Church, why would the Orthodox Church have a problem with that?"

I would question the premise that those churches loyal to the Pope -- Eastern or Roman rite -- don't evangelize and compete with the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe, but rather just sit in their churches waiting for folks to show up. But assuming that this is exactly what they do, the Orthodox Church of course wouldn't have any problem with people choosing to join the Romans.

But the whole point to the Unia was that it was a tool to bring Orthodox Christians under the jurisdiction of the Pope by creating parallel churches that looked exactly like the Orthodox churches, except that they were under different bishops -- ones loyal to the Pope. This, needless to say, created a lot of hostility that exists to this day. Back in the "bad old days," as your own #72 itself points out, the Unia was clearly also a tool by which Rome intended to gradually change the practices and beliefs of the Eastern churches under its jurisdiction by Latinizing them.

The large exodus of American Uniates from the Catholic church back into Orthodoxy here in America in the late 19th century was spurred in no small part due to these already heavily Latinized Eastern Europeans being pushed just too far in that direction by the Irish hierarchy here in America with the help of Polish clergy. The Irish bishops here in the US had the misfortune of pushing the wrong guy: a widowed Carpatho-Russian priest named Alexis Toth (now considered a saint by the Orthodox Church in America) who just happened to be a professor of canon law and knew his rights under the terms of the Unia, which he quoted verbatim to the Roman bishop of Minneapolis in their now legendary meeting.

A couple hundred thousand former Uniates ended up coming under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church here in the US (back when the Russians had sole jurisdiction here in the Americas.) Their path of undoing their Latinization has been a long but exciting one. I daresay that this experience played no small part in Rome's change of heart at Vatican II regarding how they would treat their Eastern Rites.

Within the last few days, incidentally, I posed a hypothetical corollary that the Orthodox could have carried out in places like Poland by creating an "Orthodox Latin Rite", and interestingly enough, no-one responded.

"It's a personal freedom to choose one's religion, is it not?"

Yes it is. But again, the point isn't that the Romans and their Eastern Rites shouldn't have the right to proselytize, it is that Rome can't have it both ways: it can't pursue both a competing parallel church strategy and a reunion strategy, and expect the Orthodox to be tolerate the former and be enthusiastic about the latter.

"Does the Russian Orthodox Church have such power over the state to prevent the establishment of other christian churches in Russia?"

Well, that remains to be seen as time goes by, but it does seem clear that President Putin is commited to helping the Russian Orthodox Church regain its former stature and place of honor within Russia. I think he understands that as far as Russia goes, if his country is to be a Christian country, its path to this is via its own Orthodox heritage.

95 posted on 04/09/2005 6:27:32 PM PDT by Agrarian
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But there is a serious flaw with this line of thinking from our Orthodox brothers.
First I agree that through much of our history in "union with Rome" the Eastern Catholic church has treated as second class citizens including the lengthy periods of latinization in the first half of the last century. Fortunately the late Pontiff has spent a great deal of time and effort encouraging us to return to our traditions, although he stopped short in such areas as re-permitting our clergy to marry.
At the same time my Orthodox brother fails to mention the persecution that is encouraged and even sponsored by our Orthodox Brothers in Eastern Europe. These include recent events in areas such as Belarus as the Orthodox church uses their association with "the last dictator of Europe" to squash the free expression of religion and forcibly prevent our Eastern brothers from reestablishing their church.
It saddens me that there exists such a degree of distaste for the Eastern Catholic Church. Instead of seeing the church as a stepping stone to a unification of our church, we are seen as the enemy. It is this line of thinking that leads to such atrocities as the crusades and the holocaust.

Christ is Risen--- Christos Voskrese
96 posted on 04/09/2005 8:29:30 PM PDT by chifreemrkt
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To: chifreemrkt; Kolokotronis
"Member since April 10, 2005"

Welcome to FR! You sure pick an interesting topic, jumping into a thread like this with your first and only post on the forum...

97 posted on 04/09/2005 9:14:14 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: Agrarian; Kolokotronis
Thank you for you valuable input! Much of the Western vs Eastern conflicts is still relatively new and fascinating to me.

The large exodus of American Uniates from the Catholic church back into Orthodoxy here in America in the late 19th century was spurred in no small part due to these already heavily Latinized Eastern Europeans being pushed just too far in that direction by the Irish hierarchy here in America with the help of Polish clergy.

This goes a long way to explaining the current census undertaken by the Maronite Church. They are seeking to learn more about what happened to Maronite immigrants, througout the world. Obviously if there was no Maronite Church when they arrived in those countries, they would have sought refuge in an RC or Orthodox Church.

As an RC who has grown in spirituality and faith through the Maronite Church, I am emotionally invested in sharing this information with other RCs. Initially, I wondered why RCs weren't beating down the doors to enter the Maronite Church. Our Abouna explained that the Maronites do not evangelize others. None of this made sense until recently. As a Roman Catholic, though, there is nothing to impede me from 'evangelizing' ;-D.

Again, thank you for the history lesson. Each snippet of new information helps to fill in the gaps of the puzzle.

98 posted on 04/10/2005 12:42:05 AM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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To: NYer; Agrarian
Nyer, Agrarian was posting about the Ruthenians and certain other Eastern European immigrants here in America, not the Maronites. I don't know where the early Maronite immigrants went to church, but it seems likely to me that they went to Roman Catholic churches since their liturgy at that point in time was almost completely Franco/Latinized as was their clergy. Once there they probably melted into the background like so many other smaller immigrant groups. The Ruthenians, on the other hand, were true Uniates, with a Liturgy and praxis virtually identical to that of Russian Orthodoxy. They left for Orthodoxy when the Latin Rite bishops here in America tried to do to them what they had succeeded in doing to the Maronites back in Lebanon.
99 posted on 04/10/2005 4:35:41 AM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: Kolokotronis; Agrarian
Agrarian was posting about the Ruthenians and certain other Eastern European immigrants here in America, not the Maronites.

This is understood.

I don't know where the early Maronite immigrants went to church, but it seems likely to me that they went to Roman Catholic churches since their liturgy at that point in time was almost completely Franco/Latinized as was their clergy.

Many did settle into RC parishes. However, as I have come to know the community better, I have also learned that others went to the Orthodox Churches. That makes perfect sense since in Lebanon, it is not uncommon for Maronites to attend liturgy at a Melkite Church or vv.

Once there they probably melted into the background like so many other smaller immigrant groups.

More than likely, this is the case and the reason for the census. Information regarding the census is being published in RC diocesan newspapers, with the intent of gathering numbers. How many celebrate outside their own communities? How this information will be interpreted or acted upon is still unclear to me. With the continuing exodus of christians from Lebanon, I suppose the church is attempting to gather numbers in order to establish churches in those communities where there is a higher concentration.

100 posted on 04/10/2005 5:56:07 AM PDT by NYer ("America needs much prayer, lest it lose its soul." John Paul II)
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