Eastern Orthodox at Pope's Funeral? (Vanity)

[Kolokotronis]

I did a little digging this morning and found out that it is quite possible that the earliest immigrants may well have gone into Orthodoxy. In the 1890s there was a large "Syrian" immigration into America and a Syrian Society was established in New York. The overwhelming majority of these people went to the Russian Orthodox Church, but that Church, realizing and appreciating the ethnic needs of their Arab community, encouraged the establishment of Arabic speaking churches. The Church and the Society sent to Russian asking that St. Raphael Hawaweeny, then an Archmandrite there but born in Lebanon whence his parents had fled to avoid Mohammaden persecution in Damascus, come to America. He did and became the first Arab bishop here and was very successful establishing parishes all over America. He is now considered a saint of the Orthodox Church. Given the ethnic bonds among the Syrian and Lebanese Christians of any religious persuasion, I think it likely that a large number of former Maronites did come over to Orthodoxy. I also discovered that a number did become Roman Catholics, especially in the South, while others became (as did a number of early Greek immigrants) Episcopalians. The Maronite Eparchy in this country was only established in 1966.

[Agrarian]

"I have also learned that others went to the Orthodox Churches."

Yes, this does happen, but *only* if there is an Antiochian (i.e. Lebanese) Orthodox parish. This is because at that church they would have ethnic and language comfort that was worth more to them than similarities in liturgy. Given a choice between a non-Lebanese Orthodox parish and a Roman Catholic parish, the Maronites will pretty much always go to the Roman parish, since, as K. points out, at that time the Maronites were very heavily Latinized -- more so than any other Eastern Catholic church.

And K. is right -- the exodus of Uniates into the Orthodox church here in America was all from what we call "Western Rus": Carpatho-Russians, Ruthenians, Galicians. These were peoples who were ethnically Slavic, spoke Russian/Ukrainian dialects, and whose ancestors were Orthodox until they found themselves in the Austro-Hungarian Empire due to shifting borders and wars. That is when the Unia happened, and they were forced/tricked into papal submission.

They were gradually Latinized in some of their theological thinking (there are interesting traces of this that remain that result in difficulties in communication between the OCA -- which is at its core Carpatho-Russian -- and the Greeks and Russians).

But there are some very interesting "liturgical relics" to be found amongst the Uniates and former Uniates, since they tried very hard to preserve their liturgical texts and chants to the extent that the terms of the Unia allowed.

Because they were outside the sphere of the Russian Church, they didn't go through the Nikonian reforms (Patriarch Nikon revised the service books and certain other practices in the 17th c to bring them into line with then-current Greek practice). In the process of those reforms, many of the old Russian chant melodies were lost, since the old chant books were rendered unusable due to textual changes. Anyway, those of us who chant in the Slavic tradition have found that we are able to find some old Znamenny-based melodies in the Galician and Carpatho-Russian irmologia that are nowhere in existence anymore in the Russian Orthodox chant books.

Same with the Old Believers, who refused to accept the Nikonian reforms -- there is a body of chant knowledge there that exists nowhere else. All very interesting.

[NYer]

It saddens me that there exists such a degree of distaste for the Eastern Catholic Church. Instead of seeing the church as a stepping stone to a unification of our church, we are seen as the enemy. It is this line of thinking that leads to such atrocities as the crusades and the holocaust.

Welcome to Free Republic!

And thank you for showing up on this thread. Of which Eastern Catholic Church are you a member?

[Cronos]

Your tone is very nasty. Why is that?

Yes, it was very nasty. I saw -- and see -- you tone in the earlier post (OH! That was an insult) as being something that would undo a lot of work done on the Catholic and Orthodox side to heal issues created in the past. Yes, some EOs still see little insults everywhere, but most have gotten over that. I saw the Catholic Church at Pope JPII's funeral as reaching out to our EO brothers. Some saw it as some kind of calculated insult which leaves us Catholic bewildered. And then, someone from outside the apostolic Church seemingly trys to stoke the flames, it does get highly, highly irritating.

[Cronos]

Nice to have you on board. It's good to have someone who's actually living in the churchs to give us their perspective.

[gentlestrength]

Seeing it broadcast into even Muslim and far Eastern countries...I was saddened that ancient chants had to be done by both churches. Maybe the mystical appeals to them, but not to me. I prefer to have music whose lyrics I understand and can think about.

Having all these millions watching, and then not having the message of Christianity shared clearly...sad, sad week.

[Conservative til I die]

would question the premise that those churches loyal to the Pope -- Eastern or Roman rite -- don't evangelize and compete with the Orthodox Church in Eastern Europe, but rather just sit in their churches waiting for folks to show up. But assuming that this is exactly what they do, the Orthodox Church of course wouldn't have any problem with people choosing to join the Romans

Eh, I'd have to disagree. From what I have read, the attitude of the Orthodox Church in Russia has been one of a Church used to getting its way in the past through the patronage of the government. They seem to be very hostile to any religion coming on to their "turf".

And the door doesn't seem to swing both ways, as the Orthodox see no issue with setting up shop in predominantly Catholic or Protestant countries, sometimes setting up a hiearchy (I'm thinking of the Orthodox equivalent of an archdiocese) in extreme disproportion to the amount of actual Orthodox in these areas.

[Conservative til I die]

I saw the Catholic Church at Pope JPII's funeral as reaching out to our EO brothers. Some saw it as some kind of calculated insult which leaves us Catholic bewildered.

I see this as well. We can't win with the Orthodox. If we "snub" them it's an insult (yet at the same time they say they wouldn't want to be a part of our games anyway) and if we include them, it's somehow a backhanded insult.

And the thing is, most Catholics probably don't even give thought to the Orthodox, and if they do, it's probably neutral to positive. The Orthodox here have truly turned me off to their religion and way of life.

[Cronos]

And the thing is, most Catholics probably don't even give thought to the Orthodox, and if they do, it's probably neutral to positive. The Orthodox here have truly turned me off to their religion and way of life.

Well, not all of them -- there are some very decent Orthodox here, though I must say, they tend to be cradle Orthodox, born into the religion. Of the others, most are not acerbic ALL of the time. There was only ONE EO who I found unbearable completely -- she doesn't seem to have come back for nigh on a year -- who was a Protestant convert to EO who brought a lot of Protestant anti-Catholic venom with her.

However, I do agree, at times, it can be extremely frustrating with many not even willing to acknowledge small steps towards each other.

Take this case for instance. It's NOT a complete reconciliation, but the EO Patriarchs attending the Pope's funeral IS a big thing. Instead of rejoicing in this, pointing out what could have been, is, well, more than a little churlish. When the Pope gave/returned the St. John chrysotom relics, most EO welcomed this as a good sign, but there were a few barbs and some raking up of history.

In the end I think its worth it but we should all get a little more thick skinned!

[Cronos]

And the door doesn't seem to swing both ways, as the Orthodox see no issue with setting up shop in predominantly Catholic or Protestant countries, sometimes setting up a hiearchy (I'm thinking of the Orthodox equivalent of an archdiocese) in extreme disproportion to the amount of actual Orthodox in these areas.

I've got to admit, I don't get that either. I know my EO friends don't agree, but I can't understand how it is poaching. If NYer, say, joins the Maronite Rite Church, was she poached from the Latin rite? NO. Even thought she is in, well, I guess NY! And the Maronnite Church is essentially based in Lebanon/Syria, I think people should be free to join whichever RITE of the Apostolic Church they want. If a Catholic joins an Orthodox church, they are still part of the Apostolic Church, so good. Similarly vice-versa

[Cronos]

I guess the words spoken in Arabic, gReek etc. woudl have been understood by the Arabs, Greeks etc...

[NYer]

I was saddened that ancient chants had to be done by both churches.

As most of us realize, the Church began in the East. Our Lord lived and died and resurrected in the Holy Land. The Church spread from Jerusalem throughout the known world. As the Church spread, it encountered different cultures and adapted, retaining from each culture what was consistent with the Gospel. In the city of Alexandria, the Church became very Egyptian; in Antioch it remained very Jewish; in Rome it took on an Italian appearance and in the Constantinople it took on the trappings of the Roman imperial court. All the churches which developed this way were Eastern, except Rome. Most Catholics in the United States have their roots in Western Europe where the Roman rite predominated. It has been said that the Eastern Catholic Churches are "the best kept secret in the Catholic Church."

Maybe the mystical appeals to them, but not to me. I prefer to have music whose lyrics I understand and can think about.

Many people forget - or do not realize - that Christianity came from Judaism. As the church expanded beyond the realm of Judaism, it adapted itself to the people and cultures in which it took root. This cultural adaptation resulted in the 22 different rites of the Catholic Church today.

Some of those lyrics you so disdain were written by the Apostles and disciples of Christ during the first centuries. The Maronite liturgy, for example, is one of the oldest in the Catholic Church. St. Peter and other Apostles brought the liturgy of the Last Super to Antioch where it developed in Greek and Syriac concurrently. The early Antioch liturgy is the basis of the Maronite liturgy. The Consecration is in Aramaic, with the language and words of our Lord at the Last Supper.

It wouldn't hurt to learn more about the Eastern Catholic Churches .

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