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To: Agrarian

Thank you for your thoughtful response.

The 'come and see' approach is always valid, but I have concerns because at least one of the local Orthodox churches seems to spend more time explaining how the rest of Christendom is wrong than trying to draw worshippers to the living Christ.

As an Anglican, I am weary of the hyper-critical approach to homiletics. There is always an enemy and it is seldom Satan, instead it is usually some human agency. Sadly that is true of both liberal and conservative parishes.

As for me, it may seem simplistic, but I want to see Jesus.


19 posted on 04/05/2005 8:50:02 PM PDT by newheart (The Truth? You can't handle the Truth. But He can handle you.)
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To: newheart
If you encounter an Orthodox church that is busy tearing down what others believe -- whether in the homily or at coffee hour, I'd find another one to visit, because they don't get it. The teachings of Orthodox Christianity are so rich that it is counterproductive not to just present them as is.

It's not that there isn't a place for "compare and contrast" within certain contexts, if that is where an individual or a parish is in its search for understanding. But it shouldn't be what parish life is about.

There is a prayer we pray at every service on weekdays in Great Lent (accompanied by prostrations to the ground), which goes in part "grant me to see my failings, and not to condemn my brother..." It is meant to be taken seriously.

20 posted on 04/05/2005 8:58:05 PM PDT by Agrarian
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To: newheart; sionnsar; Torquemada; pharmamom; Agrarian; MarMema; Honorary Serb
Come and see is always the best advice any Orthodox person can give to anyone interested in our ancient Faith. Its a shame you ran into a parish where bashing was the thing. I can't say as I would like that place myself.

There is a basic point about Orthodoxy which any inquirer needs to understand and that is that we look at what the West calls salvation as a process, a long process which very few complete, called theosis whereby we become divinized, become like God. That process is often depicted in the icon of the Ladder of Divine Ascent, a copy of which is on my homepage. For virtually all of us, that process is worked out in the Eucharistic community which is the Church. If one were to attend the entire cycle of liturgies and services in the Church year, one would experience the full theology of The Church. By participating in those services and liturgies, we inculcate The Faith which leads us progressively into a life of prayer and repentance where we "pray unceasingly", even those of us who live "in the world". This unceasing prayer, this prayer of the heart, transforms us so that our being is focused continually on God. The entire person changes both inwardly and outwardly so that we begin to "walk Orthodox" as my formerly Congregationalist wife says. Orthodoxy for us becomes part of the molecules which make up the cells of our bodies and transforms us so that we live our lives far more according to the rhythms of the Church than of the world. Doctrine becomes something we live, not a set of rules we obey. In the West the Church says "Do this or you will go to Hell." In the East the Church says "Do this and you will become like God." Think of the implications of this in concepts of any type of judgment, divine, mundane or Final, or of what this says about the nature of sin, the origins of sin and the consequences of sin. Think what it says about our response to Evil or to natural disasters.

Agrarian is right that one can only go so far with reading about Orthodoxy and this particular medium is especially limited. It has been my experience that most converts arrive at Church having a profound knowledge, if not understanding, of the "book learning" of Orthodoxy, but it is only after having "lived" in an Orthodox parish community for some time that they comprehend all that they have read because by being surrounded by The Faith, they begin to live it. For many years I was convinced that Orthodoxy was really something genetic and that it was the very rare Westerner who could "get it" even if they could talk a good game. My Faith was weak, because God is great and I have myself come to understand that The Faith my family has clung to for 17 or 1800 years isn't just for us in the East. It does indeed become genetic in the same way that outside forces can alter our DNA, but the outside force, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, works on all of us. In many ways, my observation of converts to The Faith brought about a conversion to The Faith for me and those whom I once thought of as something of an oddity I now recognize as the great American blessing to those of us who were born in the Faith.

Up until Pascha I will continue to post various matters from the feast days and devotions of the Church for Great Lent. My recommendation is that, if you wish, read them and then try to find a Orthodox Church where you can attend the Great Friday service and then the Resurrection Liturgy at midnight on Pascha. Those two services alone will demonstrate in great splendor how by dying Christ destroyed Death and gave Life to those in the Tombs!
25 posted on 04/06/2005 4:50:39 AM PDT by Kolokotronis ("Set a guard over my mouth, O Lord; keep watch over the door of my lips!" (Psalm 141:3))
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To: newheart
There is always an enemy and it is seldom Satan, instead it is usually some human agency.

Actually it is Satan. And a human agency which has fallen to a temptation.

Having just had this discussion with my spiritual father yesterday during a confessional time....my questions were directly related to this statement.

"Never confuse the person, formed in the image of God, with the evil that is in him, because evil is but a chance misfortune, illness, a devilish reverie. But the very essence of the person is the image of God, and this remains in him despite every disfigurement."
St. John of Kronstadt

In the Orthodox church we know that our clergy are human and sinners. They come before us at every liturgy and bow to us, saying "Forgive me my brothers and sisters and pray for me, a sinner".

Please forgive this clergy member of our church, who has been so offensive to you. I am deeply saddened to hear of his illness and how it has been displayed.

30 posted on 04/06/2005 6:55:37 AM PDT by MarMema
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