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To: annalex

The Russian penchant for adhering to tradition is an admirable quality, on its surface. They have many of the trappings of liturgical ceremony that are befitting of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. Can we say as much for our local Novus Ordo parishes?

If one were to have the Queen of England come to one's home for a visit, would one desire greatly and therefore endeavor to do everything possible and within one's reasonalbe means to have every detail befitting the visit of the Queeen? Or, would it be thought not only okay, but "desirable" and "appropriate" to figure on serving her TV dinners and offering her the service porch where the dog sleeps?

In the name of a return to the deprivation of the early Church, "a return to antiquity," the Roman Church has undertaken a pogrom of devastation and abandonment of the beautiful trappings of the Mass of time immemorial. The Russians look at this from afar and weep. But they are too proud and too, well, Russian, to weep in public.

>>Once John Paul II was asked whether he ever cried, and he said, "Never outside."

>>Today, a significant part of humanity, regardless of religion, is crying both inside and outside. Everyone in his or her own manner. Together and on their own. Karol Wojtyla deserved this.<<

JPII was not alone in his grief. Nor were the Russians the only ones to share it with him.

The whole world groans in agony over the current fact that the Russian Orthodox and Rome cannot make amends.

However, it seems to me that the direction taken at VatII is in part due to the fact that Russian ideological contribution and influence were there. Usually when the Church convenes an oecumenical council, she addresses the greatest threat to the Church at the time. At the time of its worldwide persection of Christians (66 million political murders!), Communism was not addressed at VatII. Observers from the USSR were allowed to attend the council. It would seem that all they had to do was sit there, and the council became different by their presence. We have today documents that contain the promise that Communism would not be a topic and that if the Russian observers saw that promise broken, they would walk out of VatII. What would happen next is not clear, but who knows what words of warning passed in spoken form alone behind closed doors?

It would not seem imprudent to ask if the Church was not being held captive by terrorist threats. The Cold War might have seemed like a bad dream, but it was very real. Ask anyone from 1946 Japan.

The differences that the Church has with Russia are founded on dogma. There is a curious problem with dogma. Those who hold disagreement usually refuse to make compromises. The stronger their adherence to their own belief, the less they want to entertain the discussion of it. In Catholic Tradition, we have no choice in the matter. We are not permitted to discuss compromising dogma with anyone. Not even a Pope can "dialog" regarding dogma with heretics. All he can do is teach them what the Church teaches.

It seems to me that the Russian politicians know this, and they are very afraid that the errors of Russia would be made clear by a visit from the Pope. For me to say otherwise would be a denouncement of JPII. The more Catholic a pope is, the less the Russians would want to have him visit, apparently. Therefore, to resolve this situation what we need is an act of God.


10 posted on 04/04/2005 12:12:55 PM PDT by donbosco74 (Sancte Padre Pio, ora pro nobis, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae, Amen.)
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To: donbosco74

I am not convinced of that. The opinion I hear from Catholic apologists such as Karl Keating is that every time the dogma is examined by both parties, no disagreement is found. For example, there is no dogmatic disagreement with Filioque, -- both sides agree on the dogma of Trinity and the provenance of its persons, -- there is an argument over the rite, essentially. But we have many rites, and some, legitimately, don't say "filioque". The Catholics are left with the impression that the Orthodox want there to be a disagreement and when one is resolved find another.


11 posted on 04/04/2005 12:58:27 PM PDT by annalex
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To: donbosco74; Kolokotronis; kosta50

"Not even a Pope can "dialog" regarding dogma with heretics."

Rome does not consider the Orthodox to be heretics.
There is schism. It is painful. But the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, from Rome's perspective (at least until two days ago), are so slight as to be matters of ecclesialogy, not theology. The Orthodox see greater theological differences, but it varies. The Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch were able to jointly conduct a service. The leaders of Russian Orthodoxy in Moscow are not yet at that point.


21 posted on 04/04/2005 1:31:39 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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