To: mike182d
Let's not lose sight of your earlier claim, that Judas Iscariot lost his salvation, after once having it.
Earlier, you wrote, "are you suggesting, then, that Jesus appointed someone who did not believe Christ's teachings to carry on these very same teachings?"
I responded, "He didn't appoint Judas Iscariot to carry on His teachings. He appointed Judas to betray Him."
Do you agree? Or, do you still hold to your claim that Judas must have been a true believer in order to be appointed to the twelve? Maybe he tagged along because he thought it could be advantageous to align himself with this guy who might be the promised Messiah who'd overthrow the occupying Romans. At any rate, Jesus knew his heart.
Oh, and be sure to check Romans 9 for the answer to that "God destined someone for Hell?" question you posed. At the very least, no matter what we might think of the idea, it's apparently not unthinkable.
160 posted on
03/23/2005 10:45:01 AM PST by
newgeezer
(Just my opinion, of course. Your mileage may vary.)
To: newgeezer
Do you agree? Or, do you still hold to your claim that Judas must have been a true believer in order to be appointed to the twelve?
Yes, going back to the main question:
Hindsight is 20/20. You argue that Judas couldn't possibly have been a believer because he wasn't saved. Reason suggests the contrary. But what evidence do you have that Judas never professed a belief in Christ at any point in his life? What evidence do we have the you, yourself, may not turn away from God before you die and suffer the same fate? You are presupposing that being a believer is all that is necessary for salvation, and then reconstructing the history of Judas to fit this belief system and then in the face of any sort of logical argumentation that suggests otherwise, you merely revert to a response equivelant to: with God, anything is possible.
That's not much of an argument.
Apostleship differed greatly from discipleship. They are two entirely different types of followers and one could not just "tag along" and be an Apostle of Christ. These men were challenged and called to live a life devoted to Him and the Lord and they were entrusted with a great mission. To say that Jesus picked someone for this position simply because He needed someone to betray Him defies reason and is stretching it, at best (as well as creates many problems with arguments for free-will).
My main point is that just because a person proclaims that Jesus is their personal Lord and Savior doesn't mean they'll make it to heaven. We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling and not become complacent, lest we end up like Judas.
Regarding Romans 9, I cannot find in that chapter anything stating that God creates certain men that He destines for Hell from the beginning, or as part of His "plan."
168 posted on
03/23/2005 11:10:17 AM PST by
mike182d
("Let fly the white flag of war." - Zapp Brannigan)
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson