Posted on 03/21/2005 1:36:27 PM PST by 1 spark
He shall judge between the nations,
and shall decide for many peoples;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruning hooks;
nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)
If we've been experiencing world peace for the past 2000 years, I must have missed it.
upon the throne of David
Jesus never sat upon the throne of David.
I see you are new, BTW. Welcome to FR!
That is exactly my point. That Jews were not expecting a "suffering servant" messiah. This was not a Jewish belief.
I can give you multitudes of prophetic scriptures that were written by the prophets that were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ in the New Testament if you would like.
No thank you. Most of these 'prophecies' are not properly prophecies at all, but rather typographies 'discovered' by interpretively reading the Christian story into the Hebrew scriptures. Typically, these 'prophecies' are wrenched completely out of context. A good example of what I mean is Hosea 11:1. A reading of the complete chapter in context shows that this verse is not prophetic, and could not possibly be referring to Jesus.
This Prophetic Scripture you have quoted will be fulfilled when Jesus, the Messiah returns as the conquering Messiah.
The Gospel of Matthew, Ch. 1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham, {Genesis 12:3}, (2)Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; {Genesis 28:14) (3)And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; (Genesis 38:27 + Ruth 4:18) (4) And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; (5) And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; (6) And Jesse begat DAVID the king; and David the king begat SOLOMON of her that had been the wife of Orias;(1 Sam. 16:1) (7) And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia and Abia begat Asa (1 Chr. 3:10); (8) And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias (2 Kings 15:13) (9) And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; (10) And Ezekias bebat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias (2 Kings 20:2); (11) and Josias begat Jechonias and his brethern, about the time they were carried away to Babylon; (2 Kings 24:14-16) (12) And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; (1 Chr. 3:17) (13) And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; (14) And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; (15) And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat JACOB; (16) and JACOB begat JOSEPH the HUSBAND OF MARY, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
(17) So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations(2 Kings 24:14)
That is exactly my point. That Jews were not expecting a "suffering servant" messiah. This was not a Jewish belief.
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The teachers of the law, the Pharasees and Sudduccees DID NOT KNOW THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES, even though they were teachers of the law. But they did witness the undeniable miracles that Jesus performed. He raised the dead, made the blind to see, walked on the water, turned the water into wine, but most of all, forgave sinners. Only a God/man could perform such miracle, and take away our sin. The multitudes of Jewish followers knew who Jesus was and loved him. They died horrible deaths because of their eye witness testimony of Him, and could not deny their testimony. This is how the Gospel spread, and these original 12 Jewish apostles turned the world upside down for Jesus Christ. It is no different today. Christians the world over are still dying for their faith in Jesus Christ because we know who He is, and cannot deny Him.
I see you are new, BTW. Welcome to FR!
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Thank you. Actually, I was around a bit 2 years ago, but have been away for awhile.
Show me where in the Hebrew scriptures that a second coming of the messiah is prophecied.
(11) and Josias begat Jechonias and his brethern
Jeconiah's line was cursed.
Is this man Coniah a despised, broken pot,
a vessel no one cares for?
Why are he and his children hurled and cast
into a land which they do not know?
O land, land, land,
hear the word of the LORD!
Thus says the LORD:
"Write this man down as childless,
a man who shall not succeed in his days;
for none of his offspring shall succeed
in sitting on the throne of David,
and ruling again in Judah." (Jeremiah 22:28-30)
Sorry, but that is complete and utter nonsense.
But they did witness the undeniable miracles that Jesus performed.
Which are, coincidentally I'm sure, only recorded in Christian scripture.
No thank you. Most of these 'prophecies' are not properly prophecies at all, but rather typographies 'discovered' by interpretively reading the Christian story into the Hebrew scriptures. Typically, these 'prophecies' are wrenched completely out of context. A good example of what I mean is Hosea 11:1. A reading of the complete chapter in context shows that this verse is not prophetic, and could not possibly be referring to Jesus.
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Hos 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Fulfilled in the Gospel of Matthew 2:14, 15 by Jesus Christ.
"When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt.
And was there until the death of Herod; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."
I do not understand why you do not understand this. It seems perfectly clear to me.
23 posted on 03/21/2005 8:23:47 PM PST by malakhi
Sorry, but that is complete and utter nonsense.
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Not so, my friend.
Of course they are only recorded in the Christian Holy Scriptures. It is the New Testament of Jesus Christ.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Romans 6:23
Did you read the rest of the chapter? First, the context shows that Hosea is talking about Israel, not the messiah. Second, verse 1 is in the past tense. It is referring to a past event, the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. It is not a prophecy of some future event.
Don't miss verse 9:
for I am God and not man (Hosea 11:9)
It should be simple, then, for you to provide me with any objective evidence that the Pharisees and the Sadducees "did not know the prophetic scriptures".
Of course they are only recorded in the Christian Holy Scriptures.
Which, I submit, cannot be used as an unbiased source of information about 1st century Judaism.
Did Adam and Eve offer up sacrifice?
Show me where in the Hebrew scriptures that a second coming of the messiah is prophecied.
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Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace, there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth ever for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Fulfilled in Jesus Christ in the Gospel of Luke 1: 32, 33
He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David;
And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end,
It should be simple, then, for you to provide me with any objective evidence that the Pharisees and the Sadducees "did not know the prophetic scriptures".
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Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised and we esteemed him not.
Fulfilled in the Gospel of John 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Fulfilled in the Gospel of Luke 23:18
At the trial of Jesus, and as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council saying, (Luke 67) Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, "If I tell you, you will not believe; (68) And if I also ask you, ye will not answer me, nor let me go. (69) Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God." (70) Then said they all, Art thou the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. (71) And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.
Luke 23:5 And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place. ( This occurred when the Jewish leaders accused Jesus before Pilate)
That's why God gave us the book of Hebrews. It explains the reasons to the Jews of the day.
Eastbound; malakhi
E>Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.
m>Untrue, based upon a misreading of one passage of Leviticus, and contradicted repeatedly throughout the Hebrew scriptures.
9 posted on 03/21/2005 8:01:25 PM MST by malakhi
May I draw your attention to and for each a dozen verses following:
Lev 4:2; Lev 4:3; Lev 4:22; Lev 4:27;Lev 5:1; Lev 5:15; Lev 5:17; Lev 6:2; Lev 6:3; Lev 6:4
Lev 16:16; Lev 16:21; Lev 16:30; Lev 16:34
I would like you to cite the verses in the Torah which contradict the above verses from the Torah.
B’shem Y’shua
chuck
B'shem Y'shua
chuck
You forgot one part in this rerquest. It should read: Show me where in the Hebrew scriptures that a second coming of the messiah is prophecied, using a proper translation, and not one which 'corrects' or changes the Hebrew.
I think it's very debatable whether Paul ever said any such thing.
What he did say was that the ceremonial aspects of the Law, as distinct from the natural law morality aspects, did not need to be imposed on the Gentiles, as some in his day argued. (IOW, Gentiles did not need to first become Jews in order to become Christians.) That's different from saying that they "could now be discarded".
Nobody has followed the whole Law since the Temple was destroyed anyway, though.
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