Posted on 03/19/2005 8:30:26 AM PST by sionnsar
Traditional Anglican ping, continued in memory of its founder Arlin Adams. Better yet, be like Paul... even better, be like Jesus.
Ad Jesum per Mariam
The Spirit leads people to Jesus. Period.
Well said, Biblically speaking ;)
Who said that no one could work with the Spirit? Isn't it Scriptural to say, that Mary was filled with the Spirit?
Yes, but you or I could also be the tool that the Spirit uses. And note: we don't "work with the Spirit", he works within us.
Actually, both statements are true. The Spirit is God, and we do God's work when we do what He asks us to. When turn from sin, he also works within us to change our lives for the better.
Even when we do good works, it is the Spirit that compells us, it is his work in us, not us working with the Spirit.
"Even when we do good works, it is the Spirit that compells us, it is his work in us, not us working with the Spirit"
How spectacularly Western of you! It never ceases to amaze me how far Western Christianity has gone in the past 500 years or so from the understanding of theosis of the early Church as expressed by the Fathers.
"A house roof is held up by the foundations and the rest of the building, and the foundation and the rest of the building are laid to hold the roof - since both are necessary and useful - and neither is the roof built without the foundations and the rest of the house, nor can foundations and walls without roof make a building fit to live in. So it is with the soul: the grace of the Holy Spirit is preserved by keeping the commandments, and the keeping of the commandments is the foundation laid for receiving the gifts of God's grace. Neither does the grace of the Holy Spirit remain in us without our obeying the commandments, nor can obeying the commandments be useful and salutary without Divine grace." St. Symeon the New Theologian
When you say "Western," don't you mean "Protestant?" ;-)
St. Francis de Sales, a Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, describes in his Introduction to the Devout Life on how to prepare for meditation or prayer. This consists in placing yourself in the presence of God, and invoking His assistance. He describes "four principal means" for placing yourself in the presence of God. The second way that he lists is "to remember that He (God) is not only in the place where you are but also that He is present in a most particular manner in your hear and in the very center of your spirit. He enlivens and animates it by His divine presence, for He is there as the heart of your heart and spirit of your spirit." Just as St. Symeon states, this indwelling, also known as Sanctifying Grace, is preserved only by keeping the commandments.
"When you say "Western," don't you mean "Protestant?" ;-)"
Sort of! ;-) Actually, Eastern Christian pneumatology is somewhat more developed than in the West where the Neo Platonists got a hold of it.
Wow! That was so over my head, I didn't even feel a breeze when it whizzed by. What is pneumatology & who (or what) are the Neo Patonists?
"Wow! That was so over my head, I didn't even feel a breeze when it whizzed by. What is pneumatology & who (or what) are the Neo Patonists?"
Pneumatology is the theology of the Holy Spirit. As it developed in the East, it is absolutely vital to an understanding of Christology, including the Incarnation, and explains why that old bugaboo the filioque controversy is so very important. Neo-Platonism was a school of philiosophy which many in the East and the West sought to reconcile with Christianity. In the East, the great theologian St. Gregory Palamas essentially defeated it but in the West it had great influence on scholasticism and in many ways determined the way the West does theology, especially in the area of the essence and energies of God.
"The second way that he lists is "to remember that He (God) is not only in the place where you are but also that He is present in a most particular manner in your hear and in the very center of your spirit. He enlivens and animates it by His divine presence, for He is there as the heart of your heart and spirit of your spirit." Just as St. Symeon states, this indwelling, also known as Sanctifying Grace, is preserved only by keeping the commandments."
This passage seems to point up a difference between Eastern Christian and Western Christian thought. +Francis speaks of God as being "present" in the heart. +Symeon the New Theologian speaks of the "grace of the Holy Spirit" being present. The distinction between essence and energies may seem a fine one, but to disregard it (and maybe +Francis really isn't disreagrding it at all, just using terminology which would lead one to believe he is)frankly has vast consequences for Christology, the nature of the Trinity and creation itself.
Thank you for the explanation. Clearly, I need to do a whole lot more reading.
"Thank you for the explanation. Clearly, I need to do a whole lot more reading."
Be sure when you read the Fathers, you pray both before and after. And suspend whatever scholastic preconceptions you might have. Eastern and Western theology are very, very different from each other. And you are very welcome.
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