Posted on 03/08/2005 6:32:23 AM PST by NYer
He's taking a page out of Hillary's 2008 playbook.
It won't work.
"He who goes into the conclave a pope, comes out a cardinal."
"The homily - Kasper says with support from the New Testament - must also be reserved to the priest.
...or the deacon, under the priest's direction."
Correct, though we receive our preaching faculties from the bishop, not our priest. In practice it would be awkward trying to preach if your priest didn't want you to, however!
It is interesting that Kasper doesn't mention the deacon as preacher because I understand that in Germany, deacons have been used primarily as social workers and social justice agitators rather than as ministers of the Gospel!
"It won't work.
"He who goes into the conclave a pope, comes out a cardinal.""
I hope so - but let us pray that he does not become the exception that proves the rule!
Aren't they all?
Aren't they all?
No, don't be silly. The majority of the hierarchy and theologians are all perfectly orthodox, maybe just a few bad apples here and there, but they always receive swift discipline when they stray. The Church is not experiencing any crisis, in fact we are in the New Springtime. All is well; rest easy and make sure you keep dropping those envelopes in the collection basket. And for goodness sake, don't let those gloomy, negative conspiracy nut Traditional Catholics get you down. ;-)
There is plenty of heterodoxy and anti-orthodoxy to go around. Some folks pretend that they are Catholic while rejecting the legitimacy of Novus Ordo ordinations, the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo Mass, the applicability of papal rulings adjudging their movement schismatic and their ringleaders excommunicated and who relentlessly attack pope and papacy, acting as though they and not JP II are the judges of orthodoxy. They are NOT misuderstood either. Just enemies of the Chrch who attack from a different direction than do Kaspar and Daneels and Mahoney and others.
The Barque of Peter remains the safe refuge of those who are actually Catholic.
"The Barque of Peter remains the safe refuge of those who are actually Catholic."
Actually, it is the barque of Peter and one's diocesan Ordinary, which is where the problems begin. To deliberately separate one's self from one's Ordinary and those priests and Catholics connected with him is to head toward schism.
However, the same pope who appointed Archbishop Gregory to Atlanta appointed Archbishop Donoghue too. Donoghue siad wash men's feet only during Holy Thursday, but now Gregory says women are OK. The Vatican says men only, but they appointed Gregory to succeed Donoghue. The Pope appointed Ratzinger. But he appointed Kasper too. But the Pope appointed Archbishop Burke, but he appointed Cardinal Mahony too...
Therein lies the dilemma for all of us. It is not just the Pope and the laity. There are bishops and priests to whom we owe obedience as well.
"The Barque of Peter remains the safe refuge of those who are actually Catholic."
Actually, it is the barque of Peter and one's diocesan Ordinary, which is where the problems begin. To deliberately separate one's self from one's Ordinary and those priests and Catholics connected with him is to head toward schism.
However, the same pope who appointed Archbishop Gregory to Atlanta appointed Archbishop Donoghue too. Donoghue siad wash men's feet only during Holy Thursday, but now Gregory says women are OK. The Vatican says men only, but they appointed Gregory to succeed Donoghue. The Pope appointed Ratzinger. But he appointed Kasper too. But the Pope appointed Archbishop Burke, but he appointed Cardinal Mahony too...
Therein lies the dilemma for all of us. It is not just the Pope and the laity. There are bishops and priests to whom we owe obedience as well.
For shame, Black Elk! How dare you say that. Kaspar is a prince of the Church in good standing, given the red hat by the Holy Father himself, I believe. He remains in good standing now and in communion with the pope. If he were heterodox surely the Holy Father would do something. How dare you question the pope's judgment, who is "the judge of orthodoxy". You should repent and get back to "The Barque of Peter... the safe refuge of those who are actually Catholic."
What makes these modernist whackos think that the Successor of Peter knows any more about how to guide the Church than we do? Ya gotta laugh. If only they'd stop reading the Pope's writings and read ours, instead. It's not like we're infallible or anything but.....well.....we're just more Catholic than he is. And more humble too, wouldn't you say? Why can't anyone else see it?
We don't need no stinkin' pope.........well......not until he meets our approval.......hey, we could be the uberpopes......
I sure ain't gonna defend Kasper. Don't see anyone else rushing to his defense. Some FReepers interpret any ambiguity in any one comment as a deliberate plot to undermine truth, even when there is no ambiguity in other statements by the same person. Other FReepers are more satisfied that the truth has been stated, even if not always so clearly. But few tolerate the way the likes of Kasper hem just close enough to orthodoxy to not be tried as a heretic.
I sure ain't gonna defend Kasper. Don't see anyone else rushing to his defense. Some FReepers interpret any ambiguity in any one comment as a deliberate plot to undermine truth, even when there is no ambiguity in other statements by the same person. Other FReepers are more satisfied that the truth has been stated, even if not always so clearly. But few tolerate the way the likes of Kasper hem just close enough to orthodoxy to not be tried as a heretic by a lenient and collegial Vatican.
LOL
Watch 'em turn on a dime if Kaspar is chosen pope.
good article.
Encouraging article -- maybe there is hope for Kasper yet!
Excellent post. Hillary analogy is right on.
"it is necessary for them to remain within the ranks of the Church in order that they may gradually transform the collective conscience"
...unfortunately, it is working.
hey... you really have it against the traditionalists... you will just defend anything that is contradicted by a traditionalist... you really need a new hobby, dear, or you will spend the rest of your life in these forum opposing a movement that is 2000 years old.
The defense of Tradition started with the Apostles.
marsh, do you want to be our next pope?? Do you want the white smoke to rise for you?? Ah wait, may be the use of smoke is too old for you, what should it be changed to, balloons, confetti, glitter??
latinmass
"Some folks pretend that they are Catholic while rejecting the legitimacy of Novus Ordo ordinations, the legitimacy of the Novus Ordo Mass, the applicability of papal rulings adjudging their movement schismatic..."
Since when is it heresy to reject any of the above? We may even be bad Catholics--which is doubtful--but we are still in the Church and still Catholics. You want to play pope, as usual, excommunicating people because they violate your sense of propriety. Thankfully, you have no authority to burn people at the stake. If you could, you would.
You also make the foolish claim the Pope "adjudged" the SSPX was schismatic and excommunicated. Wrong. The Motu Proprio was no such thing. It was the Pope's opinion as to what transpired during the latae sententiae, which was automatic, and which depended upon the interior dispositions of the men involved. But not even popes have the capacity to read the consciences of other men.
In short, there was no "adjudgment" because there could have been no access to the motives of those men, no way to know that they were rejecting his primacy, as he claimed, rather than protecting the ancient Mass from destruction, as they claimed. There was, it is true, a nasty Motu Proprio statement, without corroboration or evidence, one which contradicted the Pope's own canon law. So of course it has been criticized--rightfully so.
No one said any of you were heretics so give that strawman a rest. Also, it was John Paul II playing pope, because, ummmm, he IS pope or are you drifting off to sedeland? Regrettably, the salutary use of stake, rope and fire has fallen into disuse in recent centuries but I hold out hope for the restoration of such disciplines.
Your last two paragraphs are nothing but your usual self-serving nonsense stew. The pope acted nearly seventeen years ago to suppress your upstart schism for rebelling against papal authority in the matter of choosing bishops. Marcel the Defiant went to his grave unrepentant and excommunicated. The pope is the supreme lawgiver among the Church militant and he is also prosecutor and judge. The hammer came down a long time ago. You willfully persist in adherence to the schism. Actions have consequences.
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