Posted on 03/04/2005 4:15:27 PM PST by kosta50
I have a question: at what point do kids go though catechism? If I convert, are my kids included? (Actually, my last one needs to be baptized--we have never had a church community we called home long enough to get him dunked.)
It's nto 4AM in the aprt of the world where I am. :-)
The going forward for a blessing during the Lord's Prayer. I've never seen or heard of that. There's nothing wrong with it at all -- it's just not in any of the rubrics in the service books, and is not an "unwritten tradition" that I've encountered. Maybe others on the list have seen or heard of this.
I was of course referring to mainstream Anglicanism today, where communion is open to anyone with any kind of baptism, and where I have heard multiple Anglican theologians refer to the chalice as a ecumenical tool by which to achieve unity -- first share the chalice, and hope that you later come to share the same beliefs... or not.
I'm not sure what "forerunner and actuation" means -- it may be that it's what I'm about to say. The Orthodox teaching is that in our liturgical services, particularly in the Divine Liturgy, we step outside time and join ourselves to the eternal Liturgy going on in heaven. I think there is more emphasis on the "eternal now," than on the "not yet." The Liturgy starts with the exclamation by the priest: "Blessed *is* the kingdom of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages."
Every church is different regarding how catechesis is done. Many churches have inquirer's classes that cover the basics and the most common questions that people have. In smaller parishes, you might just meet individually with the priest to discuss questions and what you've been reading. The priest will tell you what he recommends regarding your children. Most of the time, just attending the services is enough. Most priests will have a certain length of time that they want you to attend before they will take formal steps toward discussing reception into the church -- very commonly, they will want you to have at least one Lenten/Paschal season under your belt.
In the Orthodox Church, our children are baptized and immediately chrismated (confirmed), and begin to take communion from that moment on. There is no process of step-wise progression through the Church -- first communion, confirmation, etc... They are full communicating members from minute one.
Many churches have Sunday Schools with educational programs to teach elements of the faith that will not be obvious from the services themselves to a child. Some are good, others are a waste of time. In the "old countries," this education was often integrated into the public school system, so the Orthodox Churches in the "diaspora" are still figuring out how to accomplish the same thing here. Right now, it is considered to be primarily a family responsibility to educate one's children in the faith.
I do hope that was said tongue-in-cheek as I know quite a few vegetarian Orthodox (some of who gave up meat for health reasons and one or two that just can't stand the taste or smell of meat).
Seriously, though, the point to the fast-free weeks is not just to relax the fast for those who want the break, but also to have times where fasting simply isn't allowed. The Synaxarion entry from the Lenten Triodion for the week of the Publican and the Pharisee says the following: "So that we can learn to avoid the pride of the Pharisee by following our own self-imposed and self-directed fasting practices -- instead of the moderate and time-tested fasting traditions of the Church -- the following week is fast-free." The week was specifically picked as one of the fast-free weeks because the Pharisee bragged that he "fasted two times a week."
My common sense interpretation of all of this would be that for anyone not eating meat for health reasons (although I have a hard time thinking of any health conditions in which the smallest portion of meat couldn't cross one's lips without negative health consequences) this wouldn't apply. Also, if someone just doesn't like meat, that wouldn't fall under fasting.
If a layman is avoiding meat as an act of asceticism, then the directive to stop fasting during these weeks would seem pretty clear, since that layman is by self-direction choosing to follow the monastic practice of never eating meat. But if it has nothing to do with fasting, then one can stop fasting in other ways -- eat fish and dairy products on Wednesdays and Fridays on those weeks, for instance.
On the other hand, if someone thinks that being vegetarian brings one to some sort of a higher plane, and looks down on those who aren't vegetarian, then again my common sense interpretation of the Church's directives would be that it would do that individual good to have a hamburger or steak during the fast-free weeks. Ultimately, it's mostly about our attitudes -- we have a tendency either to be gluttonous on the one hand, or to be prideful about our self-control on the other...
I was responding to someone who said that she was a vegetarian but missed eating lamb!
Periods when fast is forbidden is inherited directly from Judaism I believe.
"We meant the same thing. It's contained in the greek word anamnesis...where by we partake of a moment outside of time."
For us, you see, the Divine Liturgy occurs fully "off the timeline" and the cloud of heavenly witnesses I refered to earlier are very real, very here and now for us, as real as the people next to us at the Liturgy. This is brought home forcefully in the Holy Anaphora of the Divine Liturgy we we chant:
Priest (in a low voice):
It is proper and right to sing to You, bless You, praise You, thank You and worship You in all places of Your dominion; for You are God ineffable, beyond comprehension, invisible, beyond understanding, existing forever and always the same; You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit. You brought us into being out of nothing, and when we fell, You raised us up again. You did not cease doing everything until You led us to heaven and granted us Your kingdom to come. For all these things we thank You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit; for all things that we know and do not know, for blessings seen and unseen that have been bestowed upon us. We also thank You for this liturgy which You are pleased to accept from our hands, even though You are surrounded by thousands of Archangels and tens of thousands of Angels, by the Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, soaring with their wings,
Priest:
Singing the victory hymn, proclaiming, crying out, and saying:
People:
Holy, holy, holy, Lord Sabaoth, heaven and earth are filled with Your glory. Hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. Hosanna to God in the highest.
Is OUTRAGE!
Closer to Pittsburgh, actually.
I was responding to someone who said that she was a vegetarian but missed eating lamb!
Your points about fasting as an exercise in pride are well taken. However, I'm not aware of any rule in Orthodoxy which would require someone who practices vegetarianism for other reasons to eat meat during a Fast-Free Week.
Thank you for posting this. I look forward to the next installment.
Thanks for letting us know about your inquiry into Orthodoxy. I'm looking forward to reading more of yours and your boys (and possibly your husbands) journey.
I've already said more than I should on this topic, since rule number one about all of this stuff is to pay attention to your own business and not watch, notice, or comment on what other people do or do not eat.
I would imagine that the Holy Fathers would never have envisioned abstaining from meat as being anything other than a conscious spiritual act, since modern ways of obtaining adequate protein in diets year-round were unknown to them. I therefore agree that there is probably nothing that addresses this specifically.
For me, it's not a concern, since I have to fight the gluttony part and have very little to worry about in the "pride in what I do or don't eat" part... :-)
Actually, vegetarianism is biblical (Genesis 1:29) but later the Bible says we can eat anything that's living. Hmmm....
Some of the Fathers have written that as a result of the fall, it is extremely difficult for us to exist without the help of our fellow creatures, who give of their lives and substance to sustain us. It is simply difficult to maintain high levels of physical activity that the fallen world requires of us ("sweat of the brow" as per Genesis, etc...) without animal products.
It is clear that the Church has never recommended, let alone required, a complete abstinence from meat outside of the context of spiritual struggle -- i.e. monasticism. I think that it isn't uncommon, however, for Orthodox Christians, knowing from living as vegans 1/3 of the year that one can function without meat for extended periods of time, to carry this out further and do without meat much of the rest of the time as well.
It is in part because of this that the forbidding of fasting during certain seasons arose to mandate moderation in all things.
That much is clear. But there is nothing in the meat per se that is life-saving. The problem with strict vegetarian diets is that they cannot provide essential amino acids some of which are produced only in animals and not in plants, and are absolutely, as the name implies, essential for the normal functioning of our bodies.
We can get them, however, from milk and cheese, but a strict vegetarian diet is difficult, and the weight of meat accounts to some extent to the fullness we associate with 'satiation.' Meats also provide readily available iron needed for red blood cell formation (although one can get that from green leafy vegetables and strawberries). Then there is definitely a taste for "flesh" that is almost universal -- and may have something to do with our fallen nature.
What is interesting about the wonders of the modern diet, with many sources of nutrients and proteins, available year-round, is that on the one hand, it makes it easier for us to approach an "Edenic" diet, which is good.
On the other hand, all of this availability of different foods has made fasting less of a struggle for us than in earlier generations. In the olden days, just telling someone to avoid olive oil and animal products was enough to assure that one would be significantly weakened in body in the course of a fast -- especially in the late winter and early spring, when fresh vegetables and fruit weren't available.
Nowadays, with vegetable oils, fresh food shipped from the southern hemisphere, food substitutes, etc... it is possible to keep the letter of the fast without having the same effect. And yet we still find it difficult -- at least I do...
It seems that Christ must have eaten meat at least some, BTW, since he convened the apostles at the upper room to eat the "Pascha," -- after which supper he "took the cup..." etc... We know he roasted fish!
Our digestive system is simialr to other ominvorous beasts (bears and pigs) -- namely intermediate in length. The ruminating animals, such as cows have very long and complex alimentary canal (even two stomachs!) just to digest cellulose, and strict preditors (carnivors) have very short digective tracts.
The fact is that people world over like meat and compliment it with non-meat rather than the other way around. But, the animals do not only "give" us of their bodies, in Judaism, they even "take" and "atone" for our sins by being ritualistically butchered at the alter and their remnants offered (in lieu of us!) to God. This is something Judaism is traing very hard to revive.
Then there is the goat of Yom Kippur, who is not slaughetered but the "atonement;" instead our sins are transferred on the goat by laying our hands on its head and letting him run away with our sins, thus burdening the animal with our transgressions!
Fast is not a fast, of course, unless you feel that something is missing. Thus, having a lobster on a Friday night is really not a fast although it is technically speaking within limits required for fast. I think it is much more important to obstain from evil than from food. There is no point being myserable. We are not doing God a favor by fasting. We need to match our food with what's in our heart, our Chirstian heart.
"Thus, having a lobster on a Friday night is really not a fast...."
Darn! Another plan down the tubes. :(
I know ... bummer. But, interestingly enough, it didn't used to be that way. Early Christianity didn't have regulated fast, although twice weekly was always kept from Judaism. Slowly, the type of food and periods of fast were set by the Church. Monastic fasts were stricter and longer, but eventually everything evened out. Monastic orders maintain their own regimen nonetheless.
A fast is a true fast when it comes from the heart and not when it is an obligation imposed from the outside. As long as it represents obedience to someone else's directives, and is perceived as such, it is not a fast. Especially if it is done out of fear of retribution for disobedience.
I am certain that once the heart decides to fast, fasting ceases to be an obligation and it turns into a prayer. When that happens, all temptation ceases and all cravings disappear. I think the way to proper Orthodox fast is a matter of theosis, and how we experience fasting is a reflection of our position on that ladder.
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