Posted on 02/27/2005 12:55:27 PM PST by betty boop
Job and his friends thought they knew a thing or two about God. He did not take very kindly to their presumption which He then made very clear to Job in no uncertain terms in Chapters 38-41. Afterwards, Job said this:
Who [is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.
Don't you know that attempting to test a psychic phenomenon creates negative vibrations in the cosmic wave, cancelling the very phenomenon you are attempting to measure?
That would explain a lot of failed experiments, sure :-)
Yours and many other posts remind me I'm on the religion forum, which I tend to avoid (as is proper for one without religion). So I'll be signing off. Thanks for the interesting discussion, and your apparently inexhaustible fount of civility and grace.
How does the Golden Rule work for masochists?
I expect that the people around them would love them to death.
The Masochist says, "Hit me!"
The Sadist replies, "No!"
Thanks for stopping by, Professor!
The gift was complete. There was nothing left out of the set of capacities and attributes. Man was given his Freedom to make of that gift what he would. The knowledge and power of God was not given. Man was to make his own way and develope his own spirt.
Here's what God says about it:
John 10:33-39“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’(Psalm 82:6)? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came–and the Scripture cannot be broken– what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God's Son’? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
"...man's use of it.
God looks at a man's heart, not collective impressions. We can see what Moses and John the Baptist did and what God said of them. We know that God said that neither the blind man, nor his parents had sinned.We all know are limitations and failings if we are honest. We know the Jesus had the same limitations, w/o the failings.
" God is unsearchable (Psalms 145:3)."
On the contrary, Luke 11:1-13
One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
He said to them, “When you pray, say: “ ‘Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread. Forgive us our sins, for we also forgive everyone who sins against us. And lead us not into temptation.’ ”
Then he said to them, “Suppose one of you has a friend, and he goes to him at midnight and says, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread, because a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have nothing to set before him.’
“Then the one inside answers, ‘Don't bother me. The door is already locked, and my children are with me in bed. I can't get up and give you anything.’ I tell you, though he will not get up and give him the bread because he is his friend, yet because of the man's boldness he will get up and give him as much as he needs.
“So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
" Job and his friends thought they knew a thing or two about God. He did not take very kindly to their presumption which He then made very clear to Job in no uncertain terms in Chapters 38-41.
He was teaching and He came here to do so. Those passages contain a series of important questions and contain answers to implied questions. They are questions to be answered and not just by Job.
Job 40:1&7-14
The LORD said to Job:
"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
"Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?
Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
Notice how God unleashes the fury of His wrath. Here is His justice.
Isaiah 63:1-
Who is this coming from Edom,
from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson?
Who is this, robed in splendor,
striding forward in the greatness of his strength?
"It is I, speaking in righteousness,
mighty to save."
Why are your garments red,
like those of one treading the winepress?
"I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger
and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments,
and I stained all my clothing.
For the day of vengeance was in my heart,
and the year of my redemption has come.
I looked, but there was no one to help,
I was appalled that no one gave support;
so my own arm worked salvation for me,
and my own wrath sustained me.
I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground."
Notice that He has trodden the winepress alone. Notice in the following how He tramples the nations and note what it is that He asks and what was looked for in Job 40:14.
Matthew 12:18 “Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
Here is what He said.
Matt 19:16-22
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
“Which ones?” the man inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Matt 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor( Lev. 19:18) and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
The last statement
Matt 12:29
“Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
"All we know of Him is what He reveals.
Of course. You can't know someone that never shows himself. He said, "seek and you shall find." There is no exception. Is there another that has shown himself and made such claims? I've seen them presented by men, but they themselves never show their face. The only face that shows babbles, fails to answer my questions and falls short of my judgements.
And that would be....
The equivalent of the prophets of Baal. Mohammed comes to mind.
I thought that would have been clear when I said, "Is there another that has shown himself and made such claims?" The post concerned Jesus.
The world is full of "false gods" these days, spunketts. But re: Mohammed [bin Laden and Wahabbism]/Allah, I do know this: God does not command people to suicide themselves for the purpose of killing others. God is Life, not death. And the "prophets" of this "Allah" are the servants of Satan.
It appears however that we are on two very much different Spiritual wavelengths and thus would have considerable difficulty in finding common ground. If you want to try, though, I'm game - but we need to start with basics like good v evil, heaven and earth, original sin, predestination v free will, etc.
If you are curious as to my "wavelength", here is an article I wrote: What is [a Christian] man?
Yes, it would appear so. I take it that you are a Calvinist, or beleive in predestination. I beleive in Free will and the draw to God is, because of my values and finding that His are perfect. I read Scriptures by going to the source first, that is Jesus quoted in the Gospels.
I judge good and evil as based on The moral code. To me the judgement requires the choice, or decision of a being to apply the terms.
Heaven is a stable existence with God. Earth is a transient existence, where men develope their spirit. It's that spirit developed here, by the action of man's Free will, that will be judged. I posted the condition of that judgement above. God forgives all those, except the one's that reject the Holy Spirit. Those will given their own eternal domain to exist with those tossed out of Heaven for making the same choice. The fires of hell will be created by the spirits in their own domain, not by God, just as they lit them previously. He gave them Life and Freedom unconditionally.
Alas, I am a heretic, I don't beleive in original sin. In my own judgement, applying the stain of sin of one man to all his progeny is fundamentally unjust. I also don't find the concept in the Bible. What Paul said, means no more than the first man sinned and thus sin entered the world at that point.
John 9 illustrates my thoughts on the matter. Jesus says neither the man born blind, or his parents sinned. The Pharasees grilled the man and did their best to get him to say Jesus was a sinner. The man remained truthful and honest. John9:34
To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
Jesus, the man Jesus healed and the man's parents were innocent, so they conjured up the lie. As far as I was told, the Jews don't and didn't believe in original sin.
Jesus ends with John 9:39-41
Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”
Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”
Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.
I welcome the discussion and must answer honestly. I'm in an out of FR though, so I can't always answer promptly. God bless.
I see, it's a mix.
I see that you figured out I am not Calvinist. I’m not Arminian either. Nor Eastern Orthodox, nor Catholic, nor Mormon. I eschew all doctrines and traditions of men (Mark 7:7).
I disagree also with what God forgives or does not forgive. Indeed, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not forgiven (Matt 12) nor will rejecting Christ after having received Him (Hebrews 10). But then again God says He will have compassion according to His own will (Romans 9:15) and He gives allowance according to whether one has done right under the law or without the law (Romans 2). And the way we treat each other will also be in the judgment (Matt 25).
The fire of Hell – the second death (Rev 20 and 21) – is something of which we who are indwelled by the Spirit need not fear. We are already alive with Christ in God (Col 3:3).
If it were possible to be good enough to get to heaven, then Christ died for nothing. (Galatians 2:21, Romans 1-8)
I understand your point in John 9 – but that’s not what it is about. Adam was banished to mortality because of his disobedience so that he would not eat of the tree of life and be eternal. (Gen 3,4) His spirit was stained – no amount of good deeds can ever get rid of that stain. He could never become worthy again. He was cursed by the law of sin and death (Romans 8). The only way God’s children can be washed of that stain (Isa 1:18) and brought home is to be made a new person by the indwelling Spirit (John 3). Even so, the body will still die because of the law of sin and death (Romans 8).
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