Lay sermons permitted, Vatican tells Swiss bishops

The Tablet ^ | 2/11/2005

[thor76]

"Anti-C"???????

anti-communist? Anti cats? Anti-Catholic?........if you think the latter, you have not read any of my other posts.

[dcnd9]

I did, thus the comment.

[Veto!]

Sermons, I can understand. But Protestants taking Communion doesn't sound right.

Reminds me: A Jewish friend told me he'd gone to church with Catholic friends he was visiting. When communion time came, he went to the altar and received communion. Then wondered whether he'd done an OK thing.

I told him he'd have to be re-circumcised.

[sinkspur]

I told him he'd have to be re-circumcised.

LOL!! It'd hurt more this time!!!

[thor76]

Obviously you are not familiar with my other posts. If you were, you would not make that comment. I am very much a traditionalist Catholic.

Anti- Catholic.....very far from the truth. Anti modernist/liberal/gay agenda: totally.

[Mark in the Old South]

If I wanted to be a Baptist I could have. Why are they doing this?

[Mark in the Old South]

I didn't have any problem. Did you scroll down to the article?

[dcnd9]

Thanks for the clarification. Peace.

[dcnd9]

Read #24 and 25....we are trying to verify the info in the story. I'll post if the "Tablet" answers.

[B Knotts]

At the church I attend, which is a mission, we had those "Word & Communion" services on certain weekdays.

Our pastor, a young, orthodox priest, recently put the kibosh on that practice, as it was not licit.

We are blessed to have him. We have Mass every week because some Holy Cross priests from the university fill in on the Sundays when the pastor is not able to be present.

He has restored the use of Sanctus bells, and had the Tabernacle (which had been in a side chapel) moved to the front of the Sanctuary.

I saw him at the main parish church at a K of C event one Saturday, and he was wearing a cassock.

[Kolokotronis]

"I don't know if this is true or not, but didn't Tony Blair take Communion, however long ago that was? And wasn't the Holy Eucharist distributed to him in the Vatican? Don't know that for sure, but that's what's been reported here on FR, and I've seen people defend, but not refute it. And, in light of that, and if this story is true, it should come as absolutely no surprise to anyone."

Well, AG, it surprised me, but then again my knowledge of the Roman Church ended pretty much pre-Vatican II, until I signed up with FR.

" is this independence, as it is defined here, consistent with the independence more common to Orthodoxy, and it's relationship with her Bishops? Also, but not related, does Lent take place the exact same time for the Orthodox as it does for us?"

No, not at all. I am unaware that the Roman Church in Switzerland has received a tomos of autocephally from Rome. Now could an Orthodox Autocephallous Church allow for lay people giving sermons? I suppose it could, but I don't know. I do know that it is forbidden in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and in all Churches under the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Open Communion with Protestants would be a different issue entirely. In fact, I cannot see how it can be anything other than a scandalous heresy. Some years ago the Orthodox Churches met to decide if it would be appropriate to give communion to Roman Catholics and allow reception of the same in Roman Churches by Orthodox people by economia. After much discussion, it was determined that there was no consensus among the Churches and so the answer was no. At about the same time, perhaps a bit later, it was decided to have inter communion with the Monophysites by economia. If an Orthodox Church were to announce that it would begin intercommunion with Rome on any grounds other than economia, that would be heresy; if on the grounds of economia, it would mean schism. No one can rightfully approach the Holy Mysteries unless they have suitably prepared themselves by confession, prayer, fasting and the living of an Orthodox life and thus approach "With fear, belief and love". The belief is in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. How could any Protestant meet these requirements, even under economia? Now if any Autocephallous Orthodox Church, any Autonomous Orthodox Church or any Eparchy were to announce that it would begin communing Protestants, it would be declared heretical and Anathema. And that, as they say, would be that.

Our Great Lent commences March 14. Easter this year will be May 1, just after Passover.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

The general secretary of the Swiss bishops' conference, Agnell Rickenmann, said that the two declarations were partly a response to the shortage of priests in Switzerland, but also reflected the Swiss Church's "independence". He said: "In Switzerland we have a 30-year tradition of theologically trained lay people active in the Church."

This is schism. Rome doesn't have the will to rein them in.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Of course, none of these abuses or novelties will be found at SSPX/valid independent Masses where Catholics can still practice the Faith of 2000 years.

Funny, for all the furious accusations, Bishop Fellay is one of the most "obedient" bishops around.

[Telit Likitis]

What's the problem? The link gets you to the tablet and typing "Lay Sermon" in the search archives doohicky gets you to the article, written by Christa Pongratz, a long time correspondent for the Tablet.

[Salvation]

Is this a reliable source?

[sinkspur]

The Tablet is the largest Catholic newspaper in the UK.

[Gerard.P]

From Pope St. Pius X's "Our Apostolic Mandate"--Alas! this organization which formerly afforded such promising expectations, this limpid and impetuous stream, has been harnessed in its course by the modern enemies of the Church, and is now no more than a miserable affluent of the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer.

One of the more prophetic quotes and applicable to so many parts of the Church today.

[Land of the Irish]

Alas! this organization which formerly afforded such promising expectations, this limpid and impetuous stream, has been harnessed in its course by the modern enemies of the Church, and is now no more than a miserable affluent of the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer.

Compare with this:

This is the finest aspect of the United Nations; it is its most truly human aspect; it is the ideal that mankind dreams of on its pilgrimage through time; it is the world's greatest hope; it is, We presume to say, the reflection of the loving and transcendent design of God for the progress of the human family on earth a reflection in which We see the heavenly message of the Gospel. Here indeed We seem to hear the echo of the voice of Our Predecessors, and particularly of Pope John XXIII, whose message of "Pacem in Terris" received so honourable and significant a response among you. You proclaim here the fundamental rights and duties of man, his dignity, his freedom and above all his religious freedom.

Pope Paul VI's address to the UN 10/04/65

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity,

The other day I saw the local N.O. parish bulletin for Ash Wednesday. I could not find anything distinctly Roman Catholic in it. If I did not know, I could have easily mistaken it for a Lutheran or Episcopalian bulletin. The articles inside specifically spoke to "new ways of thanksgiving" instead of "old ways of penance". There was a piece on blessing food and of course, the term "our community" was referred to in place of Church, Faith, parish, etc. The Episcopalian Ash Wednesday letter I saw was slightly more Catholic.

The Christmas Day bulletin was equally bad. The One World Church is coming along nicely.

[Gerard.P]

For an anecdote that illustrates the same point.

I was home sick from work early last week. So, I wound up watching the 1953 film "War of the Worlds" on American Movie Classics.

At one point, the hero is searching for his lady love and he realizes he'll find her in a Church. So, he goes searching through Churches.

At one point he goes into an old venerable stone Church and you see the stained glass and hear a hymn that I grew up hearing. It took me a few moments before I realized that it was a Protestant Church. It looked like any Novus Ordo Catholic parish looked in the 1970's when I was growing up.

A few moments later, he winds up in another Church. The table is not there, it is an altar, there is a communion rail, And you hear the priest in the back of the Church reciting the Rosary in Latin with the Children responding to the second half of the "Ave's" in Latin.

I thought to myself, "Even Hollywood in the 50's in a "B" movie could tell the differences in the religions that the Catholics of today cannot." Lex Orendi, Lex Credendi.