Posted on 02/08/2005 5:46:04 AM PST by ksen
No PM, you've answered the question, "How does God save us?" not "Why does God save us?"
He did not say it is only true on the surface. He said it is "certainly a legitimate answer" on the surface. I don't see how you make the jump from legitimizing it to ridiculing it. One of the main viewpoints he goes into is asking the questions that stem from that answer...namely why one puts their trust and faith in Christ.
IIMO, his intent was to show that those who hold firmly that position are not deep thinkers like he is.
IMO, your intent is to show that Sproul is inconsistent and belittling because he doesn't want to believe in conditional election like you do.
Give it up, Marlowe. Your character attack on Sproul is about as subtle as a lead pipe.
Point of order: We are in Christ (Ro 8:1; 12:5; I Cor 1:2, 30; II Cor 1:21; 5:17; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:10; Col 1:28; Phm 23; I Pet 5:14).
Ephesians 1:3-6 (New King James Version)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
RC has made it perfectly clear, just as Paul does.
Saved from not being in his presence. God does not abide with sin.
OK
5having predestined us to adoption as sons...
Adj. 1. predestined - established or prearranged unalterably.
Predestined is a powerful word. This is not God responding to our action. This is God causing our action.
Point of order: We are conformed to the image of Christ.
Did you read the verses I appended?
Many times.
I'm outa here. Have a nice thread. :-)
I trust we will, Marlowe.
Joh 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Strong's Definitions of "Receive":
lambavnw a prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Lambano 4:5,495 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech lam-ban'-o Verb Definition to take to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it to take up a thing to be carried to take upon one's self to take in order to carry away without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own to claim, procure, for one's self 1c to associate with one's self as companion, attendant of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self catch at, reach after, strive to obtain to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute) to take to admit, receive to receive what is offered not to refuse or reject to receive a person, give him access to one's self, 1d to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something to take, to choose, select to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
Merriam-Webster definition of "receive":
Main Entry: re·ceive Pronunciation: ri-'sEv Function: verb Inflected Form(s): re·ceived; re·ceiv·ing Etymology: Middle English, from Old North French receivre, from Latin recipere, from re- + capere to take -- more at HEAVE transitive senses 1 : to come into possession of : ACQUIRE 2 a : to act as a receptacle or container for b : to assimilate through the mind or senses 3 a : to permit to enter : ADMIT b : WELCOME, GREET c : to react to in a specified manner 4 : to accept as authoritative, true, or accurate : BELIEVE 5 a : to support the weight or pressure of : BEAR b : to take (a mark or impression) from the weight of something c : ACQUIRE, EXPERIENCE d : to suffer the hurt or injury of intransitive senses 1 : to be a recipient 2 : to be at home to visitors 3 : to convert incoming radio waves into perceptible signals 4 : to prepare to take possession of the ball from a kick in football
vs. 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The two verses go together.
Sorry, should have pinged you to #53.
I realize that, but I was answering a specific question.
Look at the question in the post I responded to and then get back with me.
For what it's worth, the piece you've cited does not say: "Regenerated before they believed."
The sequence is (1) receive/believe and then (2) "reborn" by the power of God.
But as many as He regenerated, to them gave He power to receive and believe....
But it doesn't read in that order, does it?
Ah, the right question!
Election is not to salvation but to be conformed to Christ's image,
He also did predestinate to be conformed to His Son
Election is done for those already saved and it is an aspect of eternal security (so Calvin was on the right track)
Being confident in this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ(Phil 1:6)
As you see with the John 1;12-13 in context it has a completely different reading
Look at this
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God
Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Scripture NO WHERE says men are born again by their will
Sorry, but the grammar and structure doesn't really support any assertion of those who received being subsequently born of God. In fact, quite the opposite.
The sequence is actually (1) hearing (2) receiving/believe and then (3) "reborn" by the power of God. A subtle but important difference.
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