Catholic priests demand the right to marry

SMH ^ | 26 January 2005 | Linda Morris

[vox_freedom]

BTTT

[CouncilofTrent]

Unfortunately for them, the Church isn't a democracy.

[CouncilofTrent]

On the point of the Diaconate: Those in the Diaconate cannot say Mass or hear confessions. One could have 8 million members in the Diaconate, but it wouldnt change the fact that they cannot say Mass or hear confessions.

[Mershon]

"To me, the issue is, do those outweigh the declining availability of the Eucharist to Latin Rite Catholics?"

This is a legitimate question to ask. Our approaches, of course, and therefore our answers, may vary; but in principle, if this is truly your motivating factor, then discussing it is not outside the bounds of orthodoxy, necessarily--not any more than discussing the orthodox applications of ecumenism or the Roman rite of the liturgy.

[sinkspur]

On the point of the Diaconate: Those in the Diaconate cannot say Mass or hear confessions. One could have 8 million members in the Diaconate, but it wouldnt change the fact that they cannot say Mass or hear confessions.

True. But deacons can do everything else. EVERYTHING ELSE!!

In terms of hours spent during the course of a week, celebrating nine Masses and two hours of confession amount to ten percent of a priest's waking hours. I thought we were also talking about workload.

Have you noticed how many activities formerly done by priests are now done by laymen? Counseling, business administration, liturgy planning, sacramental preparation, RCIA, marriage cases, hospital and nursing home visitation...all these are done by laymen and deacons in our parish.

We had a married Episcopalian priest convert here for three years, and he certainly wasn't breaking his back in terms of his workload.

[Kolokotronis]

"However, if a priest wants to be considered for a bishop, doesn't he have to remain celebate? Why have married priests then?"

For many centuries now all Orthodox bishops have come from the ranks of the celibate priest monks. If you want to be a bishop, you don't get married before you get ordained. It is that simple. I guess I don't quite get your point. But as usual, I'm willing to be enlightened.

[Dominick]

True. But deacons can do everything else. EVERYTHING ELSE!!

We have two Deacons at my parish, but they have different roles. For them they seem to be mostly liturgical, and show up at CCD classes. I can count a number of men who teach more classes during the week.

The Greek system is the way it would be, so men who are Priests now would not be afforded Marriage, nor dispensations to do so. It is also not clear who would handle this influx of vocations, since formation is the top issue for a neophyte Priest. I would not want Married Priests who are not afforded every aspect of modern vocations.

I do agree with Kolokotronis that this will not end our problems, it will not be a panacea.

[sinkspur]

You have a point about the married priesthood in the Eastern rite. However, if a priest wants to be considered for a bishop, doesn't he have to remain celebate? Why have married priests then?

Believe it or not, not every priest harbors dreams of the episcopacy. Some, in fact, don't even want to be pastors. We have a 32 year old associate in our parish who pastored a rural church for a year, and told the bishop he never wants to be a pastor, ever again.

Instead, he's working on a doctorate in Scripture studies, and wants to spend the bulk of his time teaching scripture.

[sinkspur]

I do agree with Kolokotronis that this will not end our problems, it will not be a panacea.

Of course not. But there are problems with everything. It's just a matter of which set of problems the Church can live with.

[Kolokotronis]

In theory, and I suspect in practice, in Orthodoxy certain deacons could hear confessions. For us the office (offikion) of confessor is not automatically one held by reason of ordination. It is conferred by a bishop separate from Holy Orders. Thus it is quite common in Greece for non-ordained monks to hold that offikion and hear confessions.

[sinkspur]

Wow. I didn't know that. Lay confessors.

[Dominick]

It makes sense since the Bishop legally gives the Priests the right to hear confessions. It is one of the things one loses if they are not incardinated.

I have to worry about lay confessions though, the seal of confession is pretty important to a jerk like me! (thats a joke...) I imagine the same rules apply about the seal to a lay confessor.

[WriteOn]

it comes down to the question: "what is the most important thing a priest does?"

If the answer is counseling the married, then you might have a point.

If the answer is acting in person of Christ and leading the celebration of the Eucharist and Liturgy, then you have no point.

[gbcdoj]

Before the Council of Trent, deacons and even laymen were sometimes allowed to hear confessions in extremis when no priest was available. They were not, however, permitted to grant absolution, since: "as regards the minister of this sacrament, the holy Synod declares all these doctrines to be false, and utterly alien from the truth of the Gospel, which perniciously extend the ministry of the keys to any others soever besides bishops and priests" (Trent, Session XIV, Decree on Penance, cap. vi).

[brooklyn dave]

C'mon, you know that the stance on celibacy is just Church law not a doctrinal issue. It is truly an issue that has to be looked at with some seriousness, not with a knee-jerk reactionary attitude. The fact that some traditional orders are doing better than many liberal ones probably is due to other factors as well.....they don't want to put up with wacked out liturgies.

[Kolokotronis]

" I have to worry about lay confessions though, the seal of confession is pretty important to a jerk like me! (thats a joke...)"

No joke for me! :)

The seal of course applies to lay confessors too. I should add, by the way, that when confession is over, we don't get a "penance" to do as such, but rater instruction in how to avoid sin again and perhaps directions to make things right if we have wronged another person. Traditionally, before we go to communion, we are supposed to approach anyone to whom we have given offnse wrongly and ask for forgivness. That can be a hard one. No three Hail Marys and two Our Fathers! Orthodoxy isn't for wussies! :)

[sinkspur]

If the answer is acting in person of Christ and leading the celebration of the Eucharist and Liturgy, then you have no point.

He certainly does have a point.

If "acting in the person of Christ" means celibacy is integral to the priesthood, then no priest anywhere would be married.

We know that that is not the case. So "acting in the person of Christ" does not require that the priest himself must be celibate, as Christ was.

[misterrob]

Family is a big part of the church. Divorce is a no no (unless your name is Kennedy/Kerry), to marry in the church requires sessions with a priest, abortion is prohibited as is birth control. One could make an argument that family is the back bone of society and therefor, any active role that a priest plays in that should be weighed against their own experience, IMO. The ceremony and ritualistic aspect of the mass are things that really anyone can do. The sermon, on the other hand, is something that requires the giver to connect with the people listening in. How about a sermon that talks about the lesson the priest learned from his wife or children? How about the sermon that reflected upon God's teaching and how it was applied in the home in the past week? How did lessons from God make the family stronger? Save a marriage or turn a child towards a good decision? And, all from first hand experience and not vicariously through someone else?

[annalex]

A married priest is a theological impossibility. A priest is a vicar of Christ who is the Bridegroom of the Christian church. A priest is already married in a spiritual sense.

When a married man becomes priest, his wife whould ordinarily enter a convent. As an act of charity, she is not required to do that under certain circumstances; yet the mariage undergoes a profound tranformation nonetheless. Through ordination the priest achieves a deeper union with God than a married couple does throught he sacrament of marriage, and the priest's previously consummated marriage becomes moot.

Protestant ministers, of course, should not be compared to priests; in their role as teachers being married is, perhaps, an advantage when ministering to married people, - as someone on this thread suggested.

[misterrob]

Family is a big part of the church. Divorce is a no no (unless your name is Kennedy/Kerry), to marry in the church requires sessions with a priest, abortion is prohibited as is birth control. One could make an argument that family is the back bone of society and therefor, any active role that a priest plays in that should be weighed against their own experience, IMO. The ceremony and ritualistic aspect of the mass are things that really anyone can do. The sermon, on the other hand, is something that requires the giver to connect with the people listening in. How about a sermon that talks about the lesson the priest learned from his wife or children? How about the sermon that reflected upon God's teaching and how it was applied in the home in the past week? How did lessons from God make the family stronger? Save a marriage or turn a child towards a good decision? And, all from first hand experience and not vicariously through someone else?