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To: RnMomof7
Is this a denial of the trinity? I would say when the OT speaks of God it is usually the triune God. But there are times that the division of the trinity is displayed .No man had seen the Father, but men had seen Christ . The pillar of fire ( the Holy Spirit leading) . Does the author deny the trinity?

Hi Terry,

I think scripture states that the pillar was Christ, preincarnate:

Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Now certainly it was the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ since he wasn't incarnate yet so in a sense it was the holy spirit of God. As for the trinity, I'm quite certain the author denies the traditional definition of the trinity...i.e. the notion that the the holy spirit is separate and distinct member of the Godhead apart from God the father and Christ the son. I think biblically the holy spirit emanates from God and/or Christ. It's their presence in our world.

6 posted on 01/07/2005 10:44:07 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC
Doug read the scripture you quoted it says Jesus was the rock, not the pillar

Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Jesus is clearly the rock ( and that is reaffirmed in the NT), just as the Holy Spirit is clearly the pillar ( the one that leads us )

All 3 members of the trinity were present in that desert.

God the Father in the Holy of Holies ("The glory of the Lord filled the Tabernacle".)

Christ as manna and the rock ( the water that flowed from the rock... living water) and the Angel of God . The same rock moved with them to give them water . That is not 'leading them '

Twice God made water come from the Rock: Ex 17:1-7; Num 20:2-13
This Rock was specifically referred to in the Old Testament: "And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer." Psalm 78:35

"The Jews never confused the Rock that gave them water with the pillar that led them

Jewish tradition sees it this way

W. Farrar observes: "There can, however, be little or no doubt that St. Paul refers to the common Jewish Hagadah, that the actual material rock did follow the Israelites in their wanderings. The rabbis said that it was round, and rolled itself up like a swarm of bees, and that, when the tabernacle was pitched, this rock came and settled in its vestibule and began to flow when the princes came to it and sang, `Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it.'

The Holy Spirit as the cloud and as fire leading the jews is consistent with the role that jesus ascribes to Him...HE will lead you into all truth)

Jesus was led in to the desert by the same Holy Spirit that led the Jews in the desert returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

That same fire from the holt Spirit fell on Pentecost to lead the new church

Exodus 13: 21, 22. "And the Angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them: and it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud of darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all night."

The "angel of the lord " in the OT is usually Jesus

The cloud was the Holy Spirit

(John 14:16-18; Matt. 28:20; Acts 2:3; John 16:13-15; Rom. 13: 12; 1 Cor. 2:4; Rom. 8:11).

18 posted on 01/08/2005 2:22:11 PM PST by RnMomof7
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To: DouglasKC

Off the top of my head, the 'pillar of fire' generally references the 'Shekinah glory' associated with the presence of God to the children of Israel.

I applaud the article for its insightful reference to PLEROO. The term might be also understood as a fulfilling or filling to perfection of a deficiency. All Christians upon salvation are still instructed to continue in faith and further fill ourselves in faith or doctrine. Same word is used.

A tremendous amount of insight is gleaned from word studies of PLEROO and PISTIS.


28 posted on 01/08/2005 11:02:34 PM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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To: DouglasKC

http://www.ucg.org/about/fundamentalbeliefs.htm

The above link is the statement of beliefs of the United Church of God, which posted the article on their website.

I wouldn't go so far as to declare somebody as not being Christian, but I agree the above site is incredibly careful not to attribute the Son as part of the Godhead, hence tend to follow a mistaken path.

It's funny, they do present a very articulate and well studied and faithful perception of the spirit, and perhaps the Father. Perhaps if they added a doctrine of kenosis, they'd fall closer to how I understand Scripture to teach us about our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.


31 posted on 01/08/2005 11:27:02 PM PST by Cvengr (<;^))
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