Posted on 01/02/2005 1:59:29 PM PST by wagglebee
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, the chief architect of Pope John Paul II's traditionalist moral policy, has long been a bugaboo for liberal Catholics. But they had stopped worrying that the German might one day ascend to St. Peter's throne. His hard-line views and blunt approach had earned him the epithet of panzerkardinal and too many enemies. Well, their worrying may now resume. Sources in Rome tell TIME that Ratzinger has re-emerged as the top papal candidate within the Vatican hierarchy, joining other front runners such as Dionigi Tettamanzi of Milan and Claudio Hummes of Sao Paolo. "The Ratzinger solution is definitely on," said a well-placed Vatican insider.
(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...
Some argue it is valid. The Black Mass uses validly consecrated Hosts--and a validly ordained priest. My point was that validity is not synonymous with goodness. The Novus Ordo is not good--it is deliberately deceptive and dangerous to the faith.
Even in its broad outline, the Novus Ordo is radically different from the Old Mass. It is false to say it is a reform. It is a wholly new concoction.
Here is Cardinal Ratzinger at Fontgombault on this very point:
"The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication. They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of a technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."
Here is Klaus Gamber, one of the greatest of all 20th century liturgists:
"There has never been an actual break with Church tradition, as has happened now, and in such a frightening way, where almost everything the Church represents is being questioned...We can only pray and hope that the Roman Church will return to Tradition and allow once more the celebration of that liturgy of the Mass which is well over 1,000 years old." (The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, p. 109.)
Thing was, if you stood in the center of the hall, looking directly at the flames, you could take in the experience on your own. Flames did not look like hell, but like the fire of faith and ecstatic spiritual, mystical experience that many churches talk about.
In other words, for one not standing behind the church, the possibility of direct experience of God was much greater. Possibly dangerous, but really, much more profound. I choose to stand there.
Interesting, and may the Lord be with you.
I have to confess to being really disappointed in my tour of the Cistine Chapel. Not with the Chapel itself. I was there with what seemed like a million other people sucking up all the oxygen and viewing room. I couldn't grasp it.
However, the Maps in the Vatican showing the progression of Italy and the Empire were unbelievable. Also, the most beautiful Church I saw was in a small town called Pescocostanza. Huge mahogany choir, stairs and pulpit all worked to a perfection. This town was in the middle of a lot of the bombing in WWII, but miraculously escaped any destruction. The town has preserved much from the 14th and 15th Centuries. The home of a local 'patrone' which dates back to the 15th has these medieval doors that you have to see to believe.
I don't know. Who picked Judas to be an apostle?
Why does anyone need to enlighten you? The N.O. requires no defense. You have no authority to state otherwise.
The Catholic faith.
Uhhhhh.... Luther thought he was defending the faith, too, with his disobedience.
Guess again.
You're saying that a host confected for the express purpose of use in a Black Mass is validly consecrated? According to canon law, the priest must be standing alter Christi for the Eucharist to be considered valid. And the recipient must be in grace and have the intent to amend one's life from sinfulness for the reception of the Eucharist to be valid.
So, yes, valid reception of the body of Christ *is* synonymous with goodness.
Authority, I need to have authority assigned to me! I have a brain, I think, I know fraud when I see it.I have a memory, I know the Truth that was. I have a nose, and can smell the stench of heresy in the NO!
If the defense of the NO is not required, it is because the NOT is not a VALID representation of the True Holy Roman Catholic Faith. The Renegade Bishops give Communion to Abortionist and Homosexuals. They accept Homosexuals into the priesthood.
Look at the exodus from the Churches you claim needs no defense!! Your a JOKE!!
Well Sinkspur where is the Great Listing of accomplishments?? Your ally here says no one needs to enlighten us, probably because your ally hear is YOU, under another name, as I have been warned that you like to do when you are in a corner! OR the reason is their is nothing, no accomplishments that can be posted, The NO is as empty as the Chair of the pope!! Sede Vacante'
The Lord our God will reign forever and ever!
I think you are being quite optimistic on the current state of the church in France, but still you bring glad tidings. Thanks.
Yes, those churches in Italy can be gorgeous. I spent a month there, had no plans to visit any churches but had to in order to see art. I spent a magical full-moon weekend in Assisi, where the Giotto-frescoed cathedral is beautiful, of course, but even better was the tiny, plain, stone chapel built by St Francis himself, now located in the center of a much larger church in Foligno, downhill from Assisi.
The church that appealed most to my personal aesthetics was in Sorrento. All done in the most marvelous peachy color, lots of gilt, gorgeous bright pastel paintings on walls and ceiling. I opened a side door to look in, found it breathtaking, so went around to the front and walked in just as mass began. Hardly an empty seat, church filled to the brim with well-turned-out Italian families with perfectly behaved children who all looked like Botticelli angels. The speaker that morning was from the curia in Rome. Lots of pomp and circumstance. The people in the pews were respectful to the max--until they weren't. Suddenly and in unison, 15 minutes into the dull sermon, they all turned to one another and started discussing where to have lunch, the kids started running around and screaming. It was a hoot!
I do look forward to going back to Italy one day.
It wasn't a mistake. Picking Judas led to Christ's Crucifixion, which redeemed you.
I am not optimistic but realistic.
That which identifies itself as "Catholic" is rambling and in disrepair. Most Frenchmen call themselves "Catholic" and are in name. There is no way, statistically, to separate out the lukewarm from the fervent, and nobody there to take the statistics in the first place. The French state does not concern itself with keeping such numbers.
But if one opens one's eyes and really LOOKS, one sees a lot of kids around, French kids in some large families, mostly in the provinces. And when one thinks for a moment on what all of those people one knows anything of who have really large families have as a common thread running through them all, it is that they are the young devout Catholics, the ones who actually go to the Mass on Sundays.
The more one thinks of it this way, the more one sees a pattern. There are large French families. They are mostly (not all) in the provinces. But they are all Catholics or some Protestants.
I think this statistic could be proven, since there are government numbers on who gets the subsidies for the fourth child, which the state pays out as an incentive to have large families.
It would be possible to go through those lists and count the native Frenchmen, and by the names on the list to discern who was of French origin and who was of Arab origin. Now, many Arabs have large families, so many Arab names would be expected. But one could see the number of French names too. And from the list of the French, it would be possible to see who was actually a believer who attended church.
I expect that the numbers would be staggering. I expect that what would emerge is what emerges by just looking with one's eyes and thinking about what one is really seeing. The truly devout Catholics in France are having children. The rest are not. The drops become a rivulet, the rivulet a stream, the stream a river, the river a mighty flood, and the flood and ocean. This is how the meek shall inherit the Earth.
The Church cannot die unless God is a lie.
And since God is not a lie, the Church cannot die.
"Who picked Judas to be an apostle?"
Maybe Judas was picked to show the sinful nature of man. Especially among those who seem to be Godly. Perhaps there are other Judas' in our Church leadership today. Still betraying Christ.
Just an observation, I'm not an expert on the Church or theology... just a cradle Catholic.
Maybe Vatican II is leading to the purification of the Church. Why do you assume it was a mistake - that it wasn't inspired by God?
"By their fruit, you shall know them..."
Read John chapter 6 and talk to me about exodus...
I hope you are right -- I think you may be. My wife & I travel to France frequently and I am struck by two things:
1) the moribund atmosphere of most parish churches in France (Paris & the provinces alike); and
2) the vibrancy of the FSSP and SPPX churches.
I am also struck by wide range of people involved in the traditionalist movements in France. In America the traditionalists tend to be extremely clannish, defensive, and parochial. In France you find a much lower proportion of loonies among them. When I made the Chartres pilgrimage several years back I soon found myself hanging out with the French chapters rather than the Americans. They were less likely to spend the entire day arguing about Fatima.
That's a great compliment. Sorry. We're not the same person, though I wish I WAS sinkspur.
Next time in France, look at the large families, the ones with three and four and five children.
Those will be the ones you see in the churches, among the young people. You will find many empty churches with old people in them, still faithful as things fall apart. But where you find large families, there too will you find The Faith, alive, and growing as it always has.
Even in the worst deluges, God always leaves a remnant from which the new tree grows.
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