Submission to authority / God. (Vanity)

I was a Christian for 13 years before I came to realize that Christ actually had something to do with living the Christian life. The church we attended never taught me this, by the way; it came by way of the Holy Spirit, and through frusration in trying to live the Christian life to the best of MY ability. You're blessed to have discovered this yourself.

I have been thru so many trials and cried many tears... and all I know is, that if Jesus wasn't everything to me, I would be one bitter, angry, lonely person. I could very well act like a victim, but why should I, Christ lives big in my heart, all I know is that when I don't have peace in my heart I am off the mark. Get up, dust off, repent and back into His forgiving arms......no place like home.

Does the beauty of the mass, and the worship of Mary and the Saint amount to idolatry?

No, my friend. It does not. Let me explain:
The Mass could be dull and simple, and would still be the miracle of the infinite God becoming physically present in the Blessed Sacrament for us to receive as he commanded, but that is not how we do it. If some casual friends came over to your house to watch the game on TV with you, you might cook up some hot dogs and say, "Hey, guys, there are dogs on the stove and chips and buns and stuff on the counter. Grab some paper plates and set get into this game. But if the president of the United States came to have dinner at your house, you would get out your best china and wear your best clothes and treat him like a king, not out of idolatry, but out of respect, and he is not the King of the universe and your divine savior. See what I mean? We go all out for love, gratitude and respect of Him.

Most importantly is the submission to authority. Submitting to authority is the biggest problem in my life. It was a problem with my parents, it has been a problem with my jobs (witness my day time freeping), and it was a problem with Christ. I have overcome it with Christ (although still struggle with it)

Please overcome it fully. Let me tell you why;
What is finite cannot grasp the infinite but the infinite can easily grasp the finite.
Religion is man's connection to the infinite.
Since man (the finite creature) cannot grasp the infinite (God), he does not have the ability to connect to the infinite.
Therefore, religion must come from the Infinite God and not from man's finite and faulty design. It must come from God. That's why Jesus Christ came down and established His Church on the rock of Peter, which He promised the jaws of hell would not prevail against it.

Two more posts coming.

Great post. The mere concept of submission to authority is avoided by many and shunned by most.

Jesus said, "Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

Beauty can be deceptive, even in wonderful church services. The New Testament commands are what matter (as opposed to OT law.) When it comes to salvation, we find the command in 1 John 3:23. When it comes to morality, we find the command in 1 Thess 4:1-8. When it comes to the church service, we find a command in 1 Cor 14:26-37.

I also ended up at a Presbyterian PCA church. It's one of the few churches where the pastor teaches, liberal dogma isn't spread, the music isn't blasting and the service focuses on Christ. Blessings.

Thanks for bringing this up. I have been struggling in my faith as well. While I hold myself mostly to blame for my less than great faith, your thoughts (and the thoughts of others on this thread) enunciated my feelings on the role the church has played as well.

I was born, baptized and raised Methodist, but I never felt a connection to the church. Confirmation was a horror and I have been soured to the church since. I had attended services regularly for a couple years as an adult (at a different Methodist church), and again, I felt no connection. Christ and his teachings were not taught outside of the parable, and it just seemed like one big networking event instead of a religious one.

So again, thanks for bringing this up. I will read this thread with great interest. (mega-long self ping!)

APf

I noticed a person telling you to just read your bible and do nothing else. The words of our Lord show, time and time again, why this is totally wrong. Read more (different reasons) about that here.

The Bible

The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration. It was declared by the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) that the sacred and canonical character of Scripture would not be sufficiently explained by saying that the books were composed by human diligence and then approved by the Church, or that they contained revelation without error. They are sacred and canonical "because, having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that have God for their author, and as such have been handed down to the Church". The inerrancy of the Bible follows as a consequence of this Divine authorship. Wherever the sacred writer makes a statement as his own, that statement is the word of God and infallibly true, whatever be the subject-matter of the statement.

It will be seen, therefore, that though the inspiration of any writer and the sacred character of his work be antecedent to its recognition by the Church yet we are dependent upon the Church for our knowledge of the existence of this inspiration. She is the appointed witness and guardian of revelation. From her alone we know what books belong to the Bible. At the Council of Trent she again enumerated the books which must be considered "as sacred and canonical". They are the seventy-two books found in Catholic editions, forty-five in the Old Testament and twenty-seven in the New. Protestant copies usually lack the seven books (viz: Tobias, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, and I, II Machabees) and parts of books (viz: Esther 10:4-16:24, and Daniel 3:24-90; 13:1-14:42) which are not found in the Jewish editions of the Old Testament.

In respect of antiquity, the Biblical literature belongs to the same group of ancient literature as the literary collections of Greece, Rome, China, Persia, and India. Its second part, the New Testament, completed (but not officially recognized or widely known) about A.D. 100, is indeed far more recent than the four last named literature, and is somewhat posterior to the Augustan age of the Latin language, but it is older by ten centuries than our earliest modern literature. As regards the Old Testament, most of its contents were gradually written within the nine centuries which preceded the Christian era, so that its composition is generally regarded as contemporary with that of the great literary works of Greece, China, Persia, and India. The Bible resembles these various ancient literatures in another respect. Like them it is fragmentary, i.e. made up of the remains of a larger literature. Of this we have abundant proofs concerning the books of the Old Testament, since the Hebrew Scriptures themselves repeatedly refer us to more ancient and complete works as composed by Jewish annalists, prophets, wise men, poets, and so on (cf. Numbers 21:15; Josue 10:13; II Kings 1:18; I Paralip. 29:29; I Mach. 16:24; etc.). Statements tending to prove the same fragmentary character of the early Christian literature which has come down to us are indeed much less numerous, but not altogether wanting (cf. Luke 1:1-3; Colossians 4:16; I Corinthians 5:9). But, however ancient and fragmentary, it is not to be supposed that the Biblical literature contains only few, and these rather imperfect, literary forms. In point of fact its contents exhibit nearly all the literary forms met with in our Western literatures together with other peculiarly Eastern, but none the less beautiful. It is also a well-known fact that the Bible is so replete with pieces of transcendent literary beauty that the greatest orators and writers of the last four centuries have most willingly turned to our sacred books as pre-eminently worthy of admiration, study, and imitation. Of course the widest and deepest influence that has ever been, and ever will be, exercised upon the minds and hearts of men remains due to the fact that, while all the other literatures are but man's productions, the Bible is indeed "inspired of God" and, as such, especially "profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice" (II Timothy 3:16).

The Origin of the Bible
Pope St. Damasus I (Reigned as Bishop of Rome and successor of St. Peter from 366-383 A.D.)
After Julian, the Apostate was cut off in full career by a Persian arrow, the Church in the West enjoyed peace. That brave and capable soldier, Valentinian, was a faithful Catholic. It was a time for growth and development, and in St. Damasus the Church had a leader suited to the time. Damasus was born in Rome of Spanish descent. He was elected pope by a large majority, but a minority refused to accept the election and arrogantly set up Ursinus as antipope. Rome rang with tumult until finally Valentinian exiled Ursinus.

Damasus was a capable administrator, a writer, and a holy bishop. He repeatedly condemned heresy yet was so merciful to repentant heretics that the dour old Arian-fighter, Lucifer of Cagliari, actually left the Church in disgust to start a rigorist schism. While Arians (the heretical group that denied the divinity of Jesus) still troubled the Church, new heresies added to the difficulties of Damasus. Macedonius was teaching that the Holy Ghost was not divine. Apollinaris was holding that Christ did not have a rational human soul. Both heresies were condemned by Damasus.

In the East the Arians were enjoying a final fling. Valentinian's less capable and less orthodox brother, Valens, was under Arian influence. He made it hot for the orthodox, but in 378 Valens was ridden down by the hard-charging Goths at Adrianople. His successor, Emperor Theodosius, threw his support to the orthodox and asked that a council of the Church in the Eastern Empire be held to settle the matter. This council met at Constantinople in 381. Since it was an Eastern council, Pope Damasus does not seem to have had any direct connection with it, but the council adopted the Pope's teaching, recondemned Arianism and made a strong declaration of the divinity of the Holy Ghost against the Macedonians. Damasus approved the doctrinal decrees of the council and it became ranked as an ecumenical council.

During his reign and by his singular authority as visible head of Christ's Church on earth, Pope Damasus published a canon of Holy Scripture, that is, a list of the books of the Old and New Testaments which are to be considered the inspired word of God. To spread the knowledge of Holy Scripture, the Pope urged his friend, the great St. Jerome, to translate the Bible. St. Jerome did so and produced that Vulgate edition which has served the Church so long and so usefully. (Note: Centuries later, the Jews removed several of the old books from their list of inspired scripture, based upon criteria such as the gender and/or language of the writers. The Church did not follow this sudden and odd whim of the Jews as the protestants did almost a thousand years later.) Until this time--more than three-hundred-thirty years after the death and resurrection of our Lord--Christians had nothing but the oral tradition and authority of the Catholic Church to guide them, other than the books of the Old Testament and the scattered writings of the church fathers along with other writings which were less reliable, often fanciful and sometimes even heretical. The fact is that there was no New Testament of the Bible until this holy and inspired Pope gathered and declared the sacred writings as set apart from all others as the inspired Word of God for the benefit of all Christians.

Damasus was noted, too, for his clear statement on the hierarchy in the Church. Quoting the words of Christ to Peter, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My church," Damasus says that the Roman Church is above all the other Diocese in authority. Next in importance comes Alexandria, founded by St. Mark at St. Peter's command, and Antioch, where St. Peter ruled before going to Rome.

Now that the persecutions were over, Damasus worked hard to foster devotion to the martyrs. He encouraged pilgrimages to the catacombs. He built stairways and light wells in the sacred vaults. On the martyrs' tombs he placed inscriptions. Indeed, the Pope himself wrote many of these in excellent verse. He diligently searched the records for accounts of martyrdoms. Historians and archaeologists as well as lovers of Holy Scripture owe much to this intelligent and pious pope.

Full details concerning the lives and works of each of the popes can be found at:
www.knight.org/advent/Popes/ppindx.htm

You have an amazingly simple testimony, yet it is powerful. The grace of God in Christ is simple, but it confounds the unbelieving world. The world cannot explain it, nor does the world offer any real altertive to it.

The bottom line is.....never put God into a box...it will blind you to His Power and Glory. Remember you can learn from anyone, it may be good or bad, but you can still learn. I just understand that Jesus lives in me and thru me. No more no less. PS...He has a sense of humor...

IMHO, you are in for the ultimate great adventure. What I would suggest is talk to Him full time (all day and all night) and He will come alive in your heart.

Also I agree with My2Cent when he said,

Always focus on Christ. He is our life, our comfort, our security, our righteousness, our purpose in life, our connect with God. He's our all. The extent to which any individual church or denomination diverts your attention away from Christ and to itself should be the determining factor in whether you choose to fellowship there.

Good luck and God Bless...

And get a copy of Oswald Chambers' book of daily devotion, My Utmost for His Highest. It is the best...next to the Bible, of course.

I was raised catholic but was not properly catechized.
As a young adult I was confused as I didn't know much about my own religion - or anyone else's for that matter.

I thought before I left the Catholic Church I ought to understand it - in order to know what it was I was leaving.

I never left.

The first thing I did was read Crossing the Treshold of Hope.
This helped me understand that most of what I thought I knew was bunk - that I had alot of reading to do.

My suggestions?
Start working your way through the Catholic Catechism - with a catholic bible by your side.
Read the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

Excellent books to read are those written by...
Scott Hahn, Karl Keating,Stephen K. Ray, Patrick Madrid (all converts)

What you should avoid is considering every statement that comes from Rome as "church teaching"
There is a great difference between an OPINION that a cardinal or the pope gives vs. actual DEFINED Church teaching.
The Church does NOT teach that everything that comes out of the pope's mouth is infallible.
There are special circumstances where infallibility kicks in (ex-cathedra statements, church councils...)
It is these declarations you should consider to properly represent Church teaching.

EWTN has many good resources on their site, as does Karl Keating..
http://www.catholic.com

I can send you more if your interested.

Lastly...you need to find a sound catholic friend or priest who you can rely on for solid information and advise.
There is much dissent out there and alot of misinformation.

There are many people who hate what they THINK the Church is...but may not hate what the Church actually IS.

God Bless!

WHETHER or not you are Catholic, you may have questions about the Catholic faith. You may have heard challenges to the Catholic Church's claim to be the interpreter and safeguard of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Such challenges come from door-to-door missionaries who ask, "Are you saved?", from peer pressure that urges you to ignore the Church's teachings, from a secular culture that whispers "There is no God."

You can't deal with these challenges unless you understand the basics of the Catholic faith. This booklet introduces them to you.

In Catholicism you will find answers to life's most troubling questions: Why am I here? Who made me? What must I believe? How must I act? All these can be answered to your satisfaction, if only you will open yourself to God's grace, turn to the Church he established, and follow his plan for you (John 7:17).

AN UNBROKEN HISTORY
Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today's Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church's divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members, even some of its leaders, have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church's leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

FOUR MARKS OF THE TRUE CHURCH
If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813-822)
Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23-32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church's official teachers, the pope and the bishops united with him, have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12-13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant.

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25-27, Rev. 19:7-8, CCC 823-829)
By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn't mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21-23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19-20, Rev. 5:9-10, CCC 830-856)
Jesus' Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19-20).

For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, preaching the good news that Christ died for all men and that he wants all of us to be members of his universal family (Gal. 3:28).

Nowadays the Catholic Church is found in every country of the world and is still sending out missionaries to "make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius's time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19-20, CCC 857-865)
The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

These beliefs include the bodily Resurrection of Jesus, the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the forgiveness of sins through a priest, baptismal regeneration, the existence of purgatory, Mary's special role, and much more, even the doctrine of apostolic succession itself.

Early Christian writings prove the first Christians were thoroughly Catholic in belief and practice and looked to the successors of the apostles as their leaders. What these first Christians believed is still believed by the Catholic Church. No other Church can make that claim.

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth
Man's ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, not through man's effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).

He guided the Israelites on their escape from Egypt by giving them a pillar of fire to light their way across the dark wilderness (Exod. 13:21). Today he guides us through his Catholic Church.

The Bible, sacred Tradition, and the writings of the earliest Christians testify that the Church teaches with Jesus' authority. In this age of countless competing religions, each clamoring for attention, one voice rises above the din: the Catholic Church, which the Bible calls "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Jesus assured the apostles and their successors, the popes and the bishops, "He who listens to you listens to me, and he who rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16). Jesus promised to guide his Church into all truth (John 16:12-13). We can have confidence that his Church teaches only the truth.

THE STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH
Jesus chose the apostles to be the earthly leaders of the Church. He gave them his own authority to teach and to govern, not as dictators, but as loving pastors and fathers. That is why Catholics call their spiritual leaders "father." In doing so we follow Paul's example: "I became your father in Jesus Christ through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:15).

The apostles, fulfilling Jesus' will, ordained bishops, priests, and deacons and thus handed on their apostolic ministry to them, the fullest degree of ordination to the bishops, lesser degrees to the priests and deacons.

The Pope and Bishops (CCC 880-883)
Jesus gave Peter special authority among the apostles (John 21:15-17) and signified this by changing his name from Simon to Peter, which means "rock" (John 1:42). He said Peter was to be the rock on which he would build his Church (Matt. 16:18).

In Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke, Simon's new name was Kepha (which means a massive rock). Later this name was translated into Greek as Petros (John 1:42) and into English as Peter. Christ gave Peter alone the "keys of the kingdom" (Matt. 16:19) and promised that Peter's decisions would be binding in heaven. He also gave similar power to the other apostles (Matt. 18:18), but only Peter was given the keys, symbols of his authority to rule the Church on earth in Jesus' absence.

Christ, the Good Shepherd, called Peter to be the chief shepherd of his Church (John 21:15-17). He gave Peter the task of strengthening the other apostles in their faith, ensuring that they taught only what was true (Luke 22:31-32). Peter led the Church in proclaiming the gospel and making decisions (Acts 2:1- 41, 15:7-12).

Early Christian writings tell us that Peter's successors, the bishops of Rome (who from the earliest times have been called by the affectionate title of "pope," which means "papa"), continued to exercise Peter's ministry in the Church.

The pope is the successor to Peter as bishop of Rome. The world's other bishops are successors to the apostles in general.

HOW GOD SPEAKS TO US
As from the first, God speaks to his Church through the Bible and through sacred Tradition. To make sure we understand him, he guides the Church's teaching authority, the magisterium, so it always interprets the Bible and Tradition accurately. This is the gift of infallibility.

Like the three legs on a stool, the Bible, Tradition, and the magisterium are all necessary for the stability of the Church and to guarantee sound doctrine.

Sacred Tradition (CCC 75-83)
Sacred Tradition should not be confused with mere traditions of men, which are more commonly called customs or disciplines. Jesus sometimes condemned customs or disciplines, but only if they were contrary to God's commands (Mark 7:8). He never condemned sacred Tradition, and he didn't even condemn all human tradition.

Sacred Tradition and the Bible are not different or competing revelations. They are two ways that the Church hands on the gospel. Apostolic teachings such as the Trinity, infant baptism, the inerrancy of the Bible, purgatory, and Mary's perpetual virginity have been most clearly taught through Tradition, although they are also implicitly present in (and not contrary to) the Bible. The Bible itself tells us to hold fast to Tradition, whether it comes to us in written or oral form (2 Thess. 2:15, 1 Cor. 11:2).

Sacred Tradition should not be confused with customs and disciplines, such as the rosary, priestly celibacy, and not eating meat on Fridays in Lent. These are good and helpful things, but they are not doctrines. Sacred Tradition preserves doctrines first taught by Jesus to the apostles and later passed down to us through the apostle's successors, the bishops.

Scripture (CCC 101-141)
Scripture, by which we mean the Old and New Testaments, was inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). The Holy Spirit guided the biblical authors to write what he wanted them to write. Since God is the principal author of the Bible, and since God is truth itself (John 14:6) and cannot teach anything untrue, the Bible is free from all error in everything it asserts to be true.

Some Christians claim, "The Bible is all I need," but this notion is not taught in the Bible itself. In fact, the Bible teaches the contrary idea (2 Pet. 1:20-21, 3:15-16). The "Bible alone" theory was not believed by anyone in the early Church.

It is new, having arisen only in the 1500s during the Protestant Reformation. The theory is a "tradition of men" that nullifies the Word of God, distorts the true role of the Bible, and undermines the authority of the Church Jesus established (Mark 7:1-8).

Although popular with many "Bible Christian" churches, the "Bible alone" theory simply does not work in practice. Historical experience disproves it. Each year we see additional splintering among "Bible-believing" religions.

Today there are tens of thousands of competing denominations, each insisting its interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. The resulting divisions have caused untold confusion among millions of sincere but misled Christians.

Just open up the Yellow Pages of your telephone book and see how many different denominations are listed, each claiming to go by the "Bible alone," but no two of them agreeing on exactly what the Bible means.

We know this for sure: The Holy Spirit cannot be the author of this confusion (1 Cor. 14:33). God cannot lead people to contradictory beliefs because his truth is one. The conclusion? The "Bible alone" theory must be false.

The Magisterium (CCC 85-87, 888-892)
Together the pope and the bishops form the teaching authority of the Church, which is called the magisterium (from the Latin for "teacher"). The magisterium, guided and protected from error by the Holy Spirit, gives us certainty in matters of doctrine. The Church is the custodian of the Bible and faithfully and accurately proclaims its message, a task which God has empowered it to do.

Keep in mind that the Church came before the New Testament, not the New Testament before the Church. Divinely-inspired members of the Church wrote the books of the New Testament, just as divinely-inspired writers had written the Old Testament, and the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit to guard and interpret the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments.

Such an official interpreter is absolutely necessary if we are to understand the Bible properly. (We all know what the Constitution says, but we still need a Supreme Court to interpret what it means.) The magisterium is infallible when it teaches officially because Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide the apostles and their successors "into all truth" (John 16:12-13).

HOW GOD DISTRIBUTES HIS GIFTS
Jesus promised he would not leave us orphans (John 14:18) but would send the Holy Spirit to guide and protect us (John 15:26). He gave the sacraments to heal, feed, and strengthen us. The seven sacraments, baptism, the Eucharist, penance (also called reconciliation or confession), confirmation, holy orders, matrimony, and the anointing of the sick, are not just symbols. They are signs that actually convey God's grace and love.

The sacraments were foreshadowed in the Old Testament by things that did not actually convey grace but merely symbolized it (circumcision, for example, prefigured baptism, and the Passover meal prefigured the Eucharist. When Christ came, he did not do away with symbols of God's grace. He supernaturalized them, energizing them with grace. He made them more than symbols.

God constantly uses material things to show his love and power. After all, matter is not evil. When he created the physical universe, everything God created was "very good" (Gen. 1:31). He takes such delight in matter that he even dignified it through his own Incarnation (John 1:14).

During his earthly ministry Jesus healed, fed, and strengthened people through humble elements such as mud, water, bread, oil, and wine. He could have performed his miracles directly, but he preferred to use material things to bestow his grace.

In his first public miracle Jesus turned water into wine, at the request of his mother, Mary (John 2:1- 11). He healed a blind man by rubbing mud on his eyes (John 9:1-7). He multiplied a few loaves and fish into a meal for thousands (John 6:5-13). He changed bread and wine into his own body and blood (Matt. 26:26-28). Through the sacraments he continues to heal, feed, and strengthen us.

Baptism (CCC 1213-1284)
Because of original sin, we are born without grace in our souls, so there is no way for us to have fellowship with God. Jesus became man to bring us into union with his Father. He said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is first born of "water and the Spirit" (John 3:5), this refers to baptism.

Through baptism we are born again, but this time on a spiritual level instead of a physical level. We are washed in the bath of rebirth (Titus 3:5). We are baptized into Christ's death and therefore share in his Resurrection (Rom. 6:3-7).

Baptism cleanses us of sins and brings the Holy Spirit and his grace into our souls (Acts 2:38, 22:16). And the apostle Peter is perhaps the most blunt of all: "Baptism now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21). Baptism is the gateway into the Church.

Penance (CCC 1422-1498)
Sometimes on our journey toward the heavenly promised land we stumble and fall into sin. God is always ready to lift us up and to restore us to grace-filled fellowship with him. He does this through the sacrament of penance (which is also known as confession or reconciliation).

Jesus gave his apostles power and authority to reconcile us to the Father. They received Jesus' own power to forgive sins when he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained" (John 20:22-23).

Paul notes that "all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation. . . . So, we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us" (2 Cor. 5:18-20). Through confession to a priest, God's minister, we have our sins forgiven, and we receive grace to help us resist future temptations.

The Eucharist (CCC 1322-1419)
Once we become members of Christ's family, he does not let us go hungry, but feeds us with his own body and blood through the Eucharist. In the Old Testament, as they prepared for their journey in the wilderness, God commanded his people to sacrifice a lamb and sprinkle its blood on their door post, so the Angel of Death would pass by their homes. Then they ate the lamb to seal their covenant with God.

This lamb prefigured Jesus. He is the real "Lamb of God," who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29). Through Jesus we enter into a New Covenant with God (Luke 22:20), who protects us from eternal death. God's Old Testament people ate the Passover lamb. Now we must eat the Lamb that is the Eucharist. Jesus said, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life within you" (John 6:53).

At the Last Supper he took bread and wine and said, "Take and eat. This is my body . . . This is my blood which will be shed for you" (Mark 14:22-24). In this way Jesus instituted the sacrament of the Eucharist, the sacrificial meal Catholics consume at each Mass.

The Catholic Church teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross occurred "once for all"; it cannot be repeated (Heb. 9:28). Christ does not "die again" during Mass, but the very same sacrifice that occurred on Calvary is made present on the altar. That's why the Mass is not "another" sacrifice, but a participation in the same, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

Paul reminds us that the bread and the wine really become, by a miracle of God's grace, the actual body and blood of Jesus: "Anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Cor. 11:27-29).

After the consecration of the bread and wine, no bread or wine remains on the altar. Only Jesus himself, under the appearance of bread and wine, remains.

Confirmation (CCC 1285-1321)
God strengthens our souls in another way, through the sacrament of confirmation. Even though Jesus' disciples received grace before his Resurrection, on Pentecost the Holy Spirit came to strengthen them with new graces for the difficult work ahead.

They went out and preached the gospel fearlessly and carried out the mission Christ had given them. Later, they laid hands on others to strengthen them as well (Acts 8:14-17). Through confirmation you too are strengthened to meet the spiritual challenges in your life.

Matrimony (CCC 1601-1666)
Most people are called to the married life. Through the sacrament of matrimony God gives special graces to help married couples with life's difficulties, especially to help them raise their children as loving followers of Christ.

Marriage involves three parties: the bride, the groom, and God. When two Christians receive the sacrament of matrimony, God is with them, witnessing and blessing their marriage covenant. A sacramental marriage is permanent; only death can break it (Mark 10:1-12, Rom. 7:2-3, 1 Cor. 7:10-11). This holy union is a living symbol of the unbreakable relationship between Christ and his Church (Eph. 5:21-33).

Holy Orders (CCC 1536-1600)
Others are called to share specially in Christ's priesthood. In the Old Covenant, even though Israel was a kingdom of priests (Exod. 19:6), the Lord called certain men to a special priestly ministry (Exod. 19: 22). In the New Covenant, even though Christians are a kingdom of priests (1 Pet. 2:9), Jesus calls certain men to a special priestly ministry (Rom. 15:15-16).

This sacrament is called holy orders. Through it priests are ordained and thus empowered to serve the Church (2 Tim. 1:6-7) as pastors, teachers, and spiritual fathers who heal, feed, and strengthen God's people, most importantly through preaching and the administration of the sacraments.

Anointing of the Sick (CCC 1499-1532)
Priests care for us when we are physically ill. They do this through the sacrament known as the anointing of the sick. The Bible instructs us, "Is anyone among you suffering? He should pray. . . . Is any one among you sick? He should summon the presbyters [priests] of the Church, and they should pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven" (Jas. 5:14-15). Anointing of the sick not only helps us endure illness, but it cleanses our souls and helps us prepare to meet God.

TALKING WITH GOD AND HIS SAINTS
One of the most important activities for a Catholic is prayer. Without it there can be no true spiritual life. Through personal prayer and the communal prayer of the Church, especially the Mass, we worship and praise God, we express sorrow for our sins, and we intercede on behalf of others (1 Tim. 2:1-4). Through prayer we grow in our relationship with Christ and with members of God's family (CCC 2663- 2696).

This family includes all members of the Church, whether on earth, in heaven, or in purgatory. Since Jesus has only one body, and since death has no power to separate us from Christ (Rom. 8:3-8), Christians who are in heaven or who, before entering heaven, are being purified in purgatory by God's love (1 Cor. 3:12-15) are still part of the Body of Christ (CCC 962).

Jesus said the second greatest commandment is to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt. 22:39). Those in heaven love us more intensely than they ever could have loved us while on earth. They pray for us constantly (Rev. 5:8), and their prayers are powerful (Jas. 5:16, CCC 956, 2683, 2692).

Our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ's role as sole Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). In asking saints in heaven to pray for us we follow Paul's instructions: "I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone," for "this is good and pleasing to God our Savior" (1 Tim. 2:1-4).

All members of the Body of Christ are called to help one another through prayer (CCC 2647). Mary's prayers are especially effective on our behalf because of her relationship with her Son (John 2:1, 11).

God gave Mary a special role (CCC 490-511, 963- 975). He saved her from all sin (Luke 1:28, 47), made her uniquely blessed among all women (Luke 1:42), and made her a model for all Christians (Luke 1:48). At the end of her life he took her, body and soul, into heaven, an image of our own resurrection at the end of the world (Rev. 12:1-2).

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF LIFE?
Old catechisms asked, "Why did God make you?" The answer: "God made me to know him, to love him, and to serve him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next." Here, in just 26 words, is the whole reason for our existence. Jesus answered the question even more briefly: "I came so that [you] might have life and have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).

God's plan for you is simple. Your loving Father wants to give you all good things, especially eternal life. Jesus died on the cross to save us all from sin and the eternal separation from God that sin causes (CCC 599-623). When he saves us, he makes us part of his Body, which is the Church (1 Cor. 12:27-30). We thus become united with him and with Christians everywhere (on earth, in heaven, in purgatory).

What You Must Do to Be Saved
Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God (CCC 1727). Our initial forgiveness and justification are not things we "earn" (CCC 2010). Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that separates us from God (1 Tim. 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor. 3:9).

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what "Bible Christians" teach; see Jas. 2:24).

When we come to God and are justified (that is, enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal. 6:2).

Even though only God's grace enables us to love others, these acts of love please him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom. 2:6-7, Gal. 6:6-10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hands to offer him. Then he gives us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to him (Rom. 2:6-11, Gal. 6:6-10, Matt. 25:34-40).

Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord', but do not do the things I command?" (Luke 6:46, Matt. 7:21-23, 19:16-21). We do not "earn" our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts us in a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Rom. 2:7, Gal. 6:8-9).

Paul said, "God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work" (Phil. 2:13). John explained that "the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, 'I know him', but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4, 3:19-24, 5:3-4).

Since no gift can be forced on the recipient, gifts always can be rejected, even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5-6, Rom. 11:22-23, 1 Cor. 15:1-2; CCC 1854-1863). Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23).

Read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven (see, for example, 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21).

Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God "will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness" (Rom. 2:6-8).

Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849-1850). We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all), and charitable acts.

Are You Guaranteed Heaven?
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.

Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12).

If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that Paul includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12).

If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been "saved," you should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am 'working out my salvation in fear and trembling' (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."

THE WAVE OF THE FUTURE
All the alternatives to Catholicism are showing themselves to be inadequate: the worn-out secularism that is everywhere around us and that no one any longer finds satisfying, the odd cults and movements that offer temporary community but no permanent home, even the other, incomplete brands of Christianity. As our tired world becomes ever more desperate, people are turning to the one alternative they never really had considered: the Catholic Church. They are coming upon truth in the last place they expected to find it.

Always Attractive
How can this be? Why are so many people seriously looking at the Catholic Church for the first time? Something is pulling them toward it. That something is truth.

This much we know: They are not considering the claims of the Church out of a desire to win public favor. Catholicism, at least nowadays, is never popular. You cannot win a popularity contest by being a faithful Catholic. Our fallen world rewards the clever, not the good. If a Catholic is praised, it is for the worldly skills he demonstrates, not for his Christian virtues.

Although people try to avoid the hard doctrinal and moral truths the Catholic Church offers them (because hard truths demand that lives be changed), they nevertheless are attracted to the Church. When they listen to the pope and the bishops in union with him, they hear words with the ring of truth, even if they find that truth hard to live by.

When they contemplate the history of the Catholic Church and the lives of its saints, they realize there must be something special, maybe something supernatural, about an institution that can produce holy people such as St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and Mother Teresa.

When they step off a busy street and into the aisles of an apparently empty Catholic church, they sense not a complete emptiness, but a presence. They sense that Someone resides inside, waiting to comfort them.

They realize that the persistent opposition that confronts the Catholic Church, whether from non-believers or "Bible Christians" or even from people who insist on calling themselves Catholics, is a sign of the Church's divine origin (John 15:18-21). And they come to suspect that the Catholic Church, of all things, is the wave of the future.

Incomplete Christianity Is Not Enough
Over the last few decades many Catholics have left the Church, many dropping out of religion entirely, many joining other churches. But the traffic has not been in only one direction.

The traffic toward Rome has increased rapidly. Today we are seeing more than a hundred and fifty thousand converts enter the Catholic Church each year in the United States, and in some other places, like the continent of Africa, there are more than a million converts to the Catholic faith each year. People of no religion, lapsed or inactive Catholics, and members of other Christian churches are "coming home to Rome." They are attracted to the Church for a variety of reasons, but the chief reason they convert is the chief reason you should be Catholic: The solid truth of the Catholic faith.

Our separated brethren hold much Christian truth, but not all of it. We might compare their religion to a stained glass window in which some of the original panes were lost and have been replaced by opaque glass: Something that was present at the beginning is now gone, and something that does not fit has been inserted to fill up the empty space. The unity of the original window has been marred.

When, centuries ago, they split away from the Catholic Church, the theological ancestors of these Christians eliminated some authentic beliefs and added new ones of their own making. The forms of Christianity they established are really incomplete Christianity.

Only the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus, and only it has been able to preserve all Christian truth without any error, and great numbers of people are coming to see this.

YOUR TASKS AS A CATHOLIC
Your tasks as a Catholic, no matter what your age, are three:

Know your Catholic faith. You cannot live your faith if you do not know it, and you cannot share with others what you do not first make your own (CCC 429). Learning your Catholic faith takes some effort, but it is effort well spent because the study is, quite literally, infinitely rewarding.

Live your Catholic faith. Your Catholic faith is a public thing. It is not meant to be left behind when you leave home (CCC 2472). But be forewarned: Being a public Catholic involves risk and loss. You will find some doors closed to you. You will lose some friends. You will be considered an outsider. But, as a consolation, remember our Lord's words to the persecuted: "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven" (Matt. 5:12).

Spread your Catholic faith. Jesus Christ wants us to bring the whole world into captivity to the truth, and the truth is Jesus himself, who is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). Spreading the faith is a task not only for bishops, priests, and religious, it is a task for all Catholics (CCC 905).

Just before his Ascension, our Lord told his apostles, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20).

If we want to observe all that Jesus commanded, if we want to believe all he taught, we must follow him through his Church. This is our great challenge, and our great privilege.

Jesus Christ came down and established His Church on the rock of Peter

Wrong. Jesus established his church universal upon the rock of Peter's testimony: "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." Jesus is the central focus of our faith, the one head of the church, and our spiritual unity with Him is sufficient to provide one with every spiritual blessing.

Rodney, don't let the Mary worshippers (a fine woman, I'll admit) distract you from the single devotion to Jesus Christ.

How silly. It's amazing how far the self-made-gods will go in streeeeeeeeeeeeetching the Word of God to keep their false status.

Ever wonder who, where and when your religion came from?
HERE IS THE HISTORIC RECORD
--------- (according to a Jewish source and double-verified in unbiased historical reference books) ---------

If you are Jewish, your religion was founded by God through Abraham about 4,000 years ago.

If you are Hindu, your religion developed in India around 1500 B.C.

If you claim to be a Druid, your religion may have developed sometime around 900 B.C. in Celtic Europe, but was completely wiped out in about 500 A.D. by the Romans, leaving only Roman writings about it; for the Druids utterly disdained writing.

If you are Shintoist, your religion developed long ago and over an undetermined period of time from the primitive animist religions of Japan.

If you are Buddhist, your religion split from Hinduism, and was founded by Prince Siddhartha Gautama of India, about 500 B.C.

If you are Confuscianist, your religion (really a social philosophy based upon ancient Chinese feudal ritual) was founded on the teachings of K'ung Fu-Tzu in China in about 550 B.C.

If you are a Taoist, your religion (really a naturalistic, philosophic way of life) began with the teachings of Lao Tzu in about 550 B.C.

If you are Roman Catholic, your religion was founded by Jesus Christ in the year 33.

If you are Islamic, your religion was started by Mohammed in the area of what is now Saudi Arabia, about 600 A.D.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect of the Catholic Church broke away from Roman Catholicism around the year 1,000.

If you are Sikh, your religion was founded in the Punjab region of India by Guru Nanak in about 1500.

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an excommunicated Catholic monk in 1517.

If you are Anglican, your religion was started by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are Unitarian, your religious group developed in Europe in the 1500s.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off from Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.

If you are a Baptist, your religion was founded by a man named John Smyth, in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are Episcopalian, your religion was founded by Samuel Seabury in America in 1789, when he broke from the Anglican church of England.

If you are a Mormon, your religion was founded by a man named Joseph Smith in Palmyra, New York in 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your religion was started by a man named William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Jehova's Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.

If you are a Christian Scientist, your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy in 1879.

If you are Pentecostal, your religion started in the United States in 1901.

If you belong to any one of the countless other protestant denominations or "non-denominational" Christian churches, your sect probably began in this century or even this decade as an offshoot of one of the more mainstream Protestant denominations.

If you are an agnostic, you profess an uncertainty or skepticism about the existence of God, or any being higher than yourself.

If you are an Atheist, your religion denies the existence of any higher being and was later officially founded by Madalyn Murray O'Hair.

...don't let the Mary worshippers...

Your post is based on a LIE.

Not a good strategy for one who CLAIMS to be a Christian.

Self-made gods?! I place Jesus first and foremost in my life, and you refer to self-made gods? I'm beginning to think you're not just confused about Biblical teaching; I think you're out to undermine it.

So... a nut in addition to a liar.

Great witness for Christ. I am done with you.

Buh bye.

True believers in the Bible and in Christ were done with you and your kind back around 1522. Why don't you tell us all how we can cover our sins through the purchase of indulgences?

WHAT A JOURNEY.

I have a pretty strong bias about any group--ESPECIALLY RELIGIOUS GROUPS.

Any group that exists longer than about a year and a half becomes extremely likely--just short of certain--to become hide-bound; bound up in customs and traditions of men (often local as well as denominational); doctrines of men; doctrines of demons etc. It seems to be a genetic part of fallen man--a part of human nature to do so.

We set leaders up as higher and more lofty than us--out of our ego to need lofty leaders and out of their egos to need to be lofty and controlling.

This is true in absolutely every denomination and many nondenominational congregations I've ever observed, been a part of or heard of.

IT TAKES AN EXTREMELY WISE, AN EXTREMELY HUMBLE AND AN EXTREMELY ANOINTED, SPIRIT-FILLED LEADER with supportive social stars on the group of similar humility, wisdom and anointed Spirit-filled status--TO PREVENT SUCH--and it's a CONSTANT BATTLE.

I have come to believe that humility, brokenness, wisdom, LOVE, kindness and ESPECIALLY BEING LED BY HOLY SPIRIT are big keys as to whether a group is worth being a part of or not.

The more traditional groups such as the one you mention are especially prone, imho, to subsituting FORM, for Godliness. And, there's something VERY SEDUCTIVE about submitting to FORM. It can be very beautiful and appeal to the senses that way.

It can be very structured and easy to apply. One just kind of steps on the slippery slide and goes through the emotions and supposedly comes out righteous and wonderful on the other end without any great change in heart or behavior the rest of the week.

FORM is also seductive in that it often seems, for many, to be a convincing SUBSTITUTE [read idolatry because it puts something man-made in the place of God]--it can be a SUBSTITUTE FOR ONGOING DAILY, MOMENT BY MOMENT DIALOGUE AND SUBMISSION TO GOD.

Most of us are pretty good at playing relationship games. God doesn't play them. So, it's much more attractive to play relationship games with some heirarchy that purports to be God's representatives on earth. Doesn't mind the group or denomination but it's worse in the traditional groups such as the one you're inquiring about.

When we have such leaders above us, we can fill the roles they expect of us reasonably well--especially on the few times, relatively per number of hours in a week, when we are in contact with them. We can be the dutiful, submissive, cooperative, supportive, whatever parishioners with RELATIVE ease.

They get flatterd and supported. They get support to some degree or another for their group and/or individual agenda. We get their approval and maybe some other overt tokens of "spiritual" blessing. From there, it's a very easy step to believe that we are thereby blessed of God when God may not have had anything to do with the whole charade.

Someone who's truly leading in Christ-like humility led by the Holy Spirit of God, on the other hand, puts us constantly off on God while supporting us in whatever ways are fitting. But they insure that we are in ongoing dialogue with God as best they can. They challenge us to submit to and be love-sick devoted to God and they SUPPORT THOSE EFFORTS to build God's Kingdom within and amongst us rather than efforts to build some human kingdom with them at the top.

They ask us questions fostered by Holy Spirit that penetrate to the quick in loving scapel ways which foster ever deepening intimacy with God Almighty. They serve us in brokenhearted ways as Christ served The Church. They model His humility and Love. They are more concerned with BEING AND GIVING OUT CHRIST than in building their own kingdom; filling a role; being some king-pin controlling social manipulator and group ruler.

Oh, any group can have leaders which are VERY VERY SLICK in this or that garb whether it is traditional Roman, Episcopal or black Pentecostal. Many 'spiritual' leaders have become extremely slick at APPEARING to be admirable while being selfish, arrogant, controlling and rotten to the core. Some may be just deceived and not know any better than to play such a role. Maybe no one ever taught them differently. And they may not be close enough to God to really be taught of Holy Spirit to do anything better or differently. God have mercy on all of them. And on those supporting such nonsense.

I really don't know too many TRULY BIBLICAL, BALANCED, HEALTHY CONGREGATIONS AND VIRTUALLY NO DENOMINATIONS. I think the humility, love, kindness demonstrated persistently by the leaders and the church in general are great clues. But such a church is hard to find.

I have almost come to the place that I'd encourage a small home group if the leader were balanced and healthy and humble over about almost any larger congregation.

The VINEYARD churches as a group of congregations used to be the most trustworthy to have decent leaders. John Wimber really was a humble character who really was sold out to God's kingdom and didn't give a flip about building his own. I don't know what it is nationally like currently. I think they abandoned the trend toward becoming a denomination and may still be a loose association of churches. The local leaders would be key issues.

Calvary Chapel churches have a lot going for them. They teach Scripture rather straightforwardly and reasonably balanced and accurately, to my mind. But, they are overly structured for my taste. Holy Spirit and God have to conform to some pretty strict forms and functions in the normal operation of things.

I think a lot of nondenominational churches do a lot better. But still the same issues are always a hazard.

Certainly I prefer a church which is totally New Testament living out what THE MANUAL--THE BIBLE TAUGHT/TEACHES AS TO HOW TO RUN A NEW TESTAMENT GROUP OF CHRISTIANS in I Cor 12-14.

But a home group doing the same with balance, humility and full of Holy Spirit; sound balanced Biblical teaching with heart felt worship would be a good substitute.

Imho, most groups older than a year and a half also get caught up in majoring in minors and minoring in majors. The priorities of Scripture and The Faith get left in the dust while all manner of harping and demands get communicated subtly to not so subtly that the parishioners had best kowtow to or be considered outside the fold or at least suspect. That's BS.

But that's the way that the IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP stuff is used to exercise and tighten the screws of control over the flock with. It's hard to be very distinctive over the basics of the Virgin Birth; Resurrection etc--all the stuff important about getting into Heaven. All that's pretty standard for any healthy, sane or rational Christian group.

So, to maintain control and guard the boundaries, groups and leaders have to insure that !!!WE!!! ARE REALLY TRULY RIGHTEOUS AND THE TRULY TRUEST TRUE TRUTH ENLIGHTENED because of all these minor, petty distinctives that we've elevated to the level of SUPREME GODLY RIGHTEOUSNESS compared to THOSE barely Christian other serfs.

I think God often wretches over such nonsense. The pharisees of Jesus dusty pathed days were artists at that and most relgious leaders since then have been their excellent students.

Anyway--Unless Holy Spirit has broken through and maintained a high degree of humility, freedom and laid-backness in a specific local traditional congregation--I'd avoid them like the plague. But I'd also do that regarding most groups older than a year and a half. And research certainly shows that groups older than 25 years are really plagued with such horrid phenomena.

In terms of the authority issue--I think it's probably healthy to avoid a lot of arrogant 'spiritual' authority. But as healthy as that might be, you probably have a kind of schizophrenic [not in clinical sense] rubber band sort of reflex where it feels alone and insecure to be soooooo averse to virtually allllll authority.

All the more so if one never felt blood or foster Dad's REAL STRONG, PERSISTENT AND NEVER FAILING APPROVAL AND SUPPORT. I know what that's like. It makes sucking up to authority figures a real life hazard--ESPECIALLY IN RELIGIOUS CIRCLES. AND ALL THE WORSE the more 'traditions' 'trappings,' RITUAL, and beautiful embelishments that are involved in the group, relationships and process.

Christ's beauty was in His simplicity. A key part of His simplicty was His utter devotion to The Father and to laying His life down for those around Him whom He loved more than life itself. Find a leader like that and associate with him but STILL ONLY FOLLOW CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

The Jews, by the time of Christ, some sources say--had thickened the curtain between the HOLY OF HOLIES and the regular Holy place to about 2 feet thick or so. Christ RENT that curtain when He was on The Cross.

All human groups are busy about building new thicker curtains again and having other buffers between the individual and God. Humans want the semblence of approval of God and association with Him WITHOUT having to really be moment by moment vulnerable to Him and His Spirit in ongoing dialogue wich submits to His leadership in every detail of life.

So we habitually collect leaders and organizational customs, traditions, rituals to ourselves to convince us that we've made it IN THE IN GROUP as well as with God. I think God laughs derisively, turns up His nose and leaves such at the speed of light.

I think the issue of authority is between you and God primarily. In your daily prayers and Bible reading, ask God what He wants you do do day by day and what submission issue is He interested in your complying with that day. AS you do that, the authority issue will be balanced out.

Submitting overly much or inappropriately to leaders keen on building their kingdoms instead of God's . . . needing man's approval instead of God's . . . will be a trap worse than your childhood traumas.

Anyway--enough rambling. God's Peace and guidance be yours.

Feel free to ask questions. Occasionally, God even allows me to have some answers.

LUB,

I will read it. I love to read and see different view points about the non-essentials.