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WHAT A JOURNEY.

I have a pretty strong bias about any group--ESPECIALLY RELIGIOUS GROUPS.

Any group that exists longer than about a year and a half becomes extremely likely--just short of certain--to become hide-bound; bound up in customs and traditions of men (often local as well as denominational); doctrines of men; doctrines of demons etc. It seems to be a genetic part of fallen man--a part of human nature to do so.

We set leaders up as higher and more lofty than us--out of our ego to need lofty leaders and out of their egos to need to be lofty and controlling.

This is true in absolutely every denomination and many nondenominational congregations I've ever observed, been a part of or heard of.

IT TAKES AN EXTREMELY WISE, AN EXTREMELY HUMBLE AND AN EXTREMELY ANOINTED, SPIRIT-FILLED LEADER with supportive social stars on the group of similar humility, wisdom and anointed Spirit-filled status--TO PREVENT SUCH--and it's a CONSTANT BATTLE.

I have come to believe that humility, brokenness, wisdom, LOVE, kindness and ESPECIALLY BEING LED BY HOLY SPIRIT are big keys as to whether a group is worth being a part of or not.

The more traditional groups such as the one you mention are especially prone, imho, to subsituting FORM, for Godliness. And, there's something VERY SEDUCTIVE about submitting to FORM. It can be very beautiful and appeal to the senses that way.

It can be very structured and easy to apply. One just kind of steps on the slippery slide and goes through the emotions and supposedly comes out righteous and wonderful on the other end without any great change in heart or behavior the rest of the week.

FORM is also seductive in that it often seems, for many, to be a convincing SUBSTITUTE [read idolatry because it puts something man-made in the place of God]--it can be a SUBSTITUTE FOR ONGOING DAILY, MOMENT BY MOMENT DIALOGUE AND SUBMISSION TO GOD.

Most of us are pretty good at playing relationship games. God doesn't play them. So, it's much more attractive to play relationship games with some heirarchy that purports to be God's representatives on earth. Doesn't mind the group or denomination but it's worse in the traditional groups such as the one you're inquiring about.

When we have such leaders above us, we can fill the roles they expect of us reasonably well--especially on the few times, relatively per number of hours in a week, when we are in contact with them. We can be the dutiful, submissive, cooperative, supportive, whatever parishioners with RELATIVE ease.

They get flatterd and supported. They get support to some degree or another for their group and/or individual agenda. We get their approval and maybe some other overt tokens of "spiritual" blessing. From there, it's a very easy step to believe that we are thereby blessed of God when God may not have had anything to do with the whole charade.

Someone who's truly leading in Christ-like humility led by the Holy Spirit of God, on the other hand, puts us constantly off on God while supporting us in whatever ways are fitting. But they insure that we are in ongoing dialogue with God as best they can. They challenge us to submit to and be love-sick devoted to God and they SUPPORT THOSE EFFORTS to build God's Kingdom within and amongst us rather than efforts to build some human kingdom with them at the top.

They ask us questions fostered by Holy Spirit that penetrate to the quick in loving scapel ways which foster ever deepening intimacy with God Almighty. They serve us in brokenhearted ways as Christ served The Church. They model His humility and Love. They are more concerned with BEING AND GIVING OUT CHRIST than in building their own kingdom; filling a role; being some king-pin controlling social manipulator and group ruler.

Oh, any group can have leaders which are VERY VERY SLICK in this or that garb whether it is traditional Roman, Episcopal or black Pentecostal. Many 'spiritual' leaders have become extremely slick at APPEARING to be admirable while being selfish, arrogant, controlling and rotten to the core. Some may be just deceived and not know any better than to play such a role. Maybe no one ever taught them differently. And they may not be close enough to God to really be taught of Holy Spirit to do anything better or differently. God have mercy on all of them. And on those supporting such nonsense.

I really don't know too many TRULY BIBLICAL, BALANCED, HEALTHY CONGREGATIONS AND VIRTUALLY NO DENOMINATIONS. I think the humility, love, kindness demonstrated persistently by the leaders and the church in general are great clues. But such a church is hard to find.

I have almost come to the place that I'd encourage a small home group if the leader were balanced and healthy and humble over about almost any larger congregation.

The VINEYARD churches as a group of congregations used to be the most trustworthy to have decent leaders. John Wimber really was a humble character who really was sold out to God's kingdom and didn't give a flip about building his own. I don't know what it is nationally like currently. I think they abandoned the trend toward becoming a denomination and may still be a loose association of churches. The local leaders would be key issues.

Calvary Chapel churches have a lot going for them. They teach Scripture rather straightforwardly and reasonably balanced and accurately, to my mind. But, they are overly structured for my taste. Holy Spirit and God have to conform to some pretty strict forms and functions in the normal operation of things.

I think a lot of nondenominational churches do a lot better. But still the same issues are always a hazard.

Certainly I prefer a church which is totally New Testament living out what THE MANUAL--THE BIBLE TAUGHT/TEACHES AS TO HOW TO RUN A NEW TESTAMENT GROUP OF CHRISTIANS in I Cor 12-14.

But a home group doing the same with balance, humility and full of Holy Spirit; sound balanced Biblical teaching with heart felt worship would be a good substitute.

Imho, most groups older than a year and a half also get caught up in majoring in minors and minoring in majors. The priorities of Scripture and The Faith get left in the dust while all manner of harping and demands get communicated subtly to not so subtly that the parishioners had best kowtow to or be considered outside the fold or at least suspect. That's BS.

But that's the way that the IN-GROUP/OUT-GROUP stuff is used to exercise and tighten the screws of control over the flock with. It's hard to be very distinctive over the basics of the Virgin Birth; Resurrection etc--all the stuff important about getting into Heaven. All that's pretty standard for any healthy, sane or rational Christian group.

So, to maintain control and guard the boundaries, groups and leaders have to insure that !!!WE!!! ARE REALLY TRULY RIGHTEOUS AND THE TRULY TRUEST TRUE TRUTH ENLIGHTENED because of all these minor, petty distinctives that we've elevated to the level of SUPREME GODLY RIGHTEOUSNESS compared to THOSE barely Christian other serfs.

I think God often wretches over such nonsense. The pharisees of Jesus dusty pathed days were artists at that and most relgious leaders since then have been their excellent students.

Anyway--Unless Holy Spirit has broken through and maintained a high degree of humility, freedom and laid-backness in a specific local traditional congregation--I'd avoid them like the plague. But I'd also do that regarding most groups older than a year and a half. And research certainly shows that groups older than 25 years are really plagued with such horrid phenomena.

In terms of the authority issue--I think it's probably healthy to avoid a lot of arrogant 'spiritual' authority. But as healthy as that might be, you probably have a kind of schizophrenic [not in clinical sense] rubber band sort of reflex where it feels alone and insecure to be soooooo averse to virtually allllll authority.

All the more so if one never felt blood or foster Dad's REAL STRONG, PERSISTENT AND NEVER FAILING APPROVAL AND SUPPORT. I know what that's like. It makes sucking up to authority figures a real life hazard--ESPECIALLY IN RELIGIOUS CIRCLES. AND ALL THE WORSE the more 'traditions' 'trappings,' RITUAL, and beautiful embelishments that are involved in the group, relationships and process.

Christ's beauty was in His simplicity. A key part of His simplicty was His utter devotion to The Father and to laying His life down for those around Him whom He loved more than life itself. Find a leader like that and associate with him but STILL ONLY FOLLOW CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.

The Jews, by the time of Christ, some sources say--had thickened the curtain between the HOLY OF HOLIES and the regular Holy place to about 2 feet thick or so. Christ RENT that curtain when He was on The Cross.

All human groups are busy about building new thicker curtains again and having other buffers between the individual and God. Humans want the semblence of approval of God and association with Him WITHOUT having to really be moment by moment vulnerable to Him and His Spirit in ongoing dialogue wich submits to His leadership in every detail of life.

So we habitually collect leaders and organizational customs, traditions, rituals to ourselves to convince us that we've made it IN THE IN GROUP as well as with God. I think God laughs derisively, turns up His nose and leaves such at the speed of light.

I think the issue of authority is between you and God primarily. In your daily prayers and Bible reading, ask God what He wants you do do day by day and what submission issue is He interested in your complying with that day. AS you do that, the authority issue will be balanced out.

Submitting overly much or inappropriately to leaders keen on building their kingdoms instead of God's . . . needing man's approval instead of God's . . . will be a trap worse than your childhood traumas.

Anyway--enough rambling. God's Peace and guidance be yours.

Feel free to ask questions. Occasionally, God even allows me to have some answers.

LUB,