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To: HarleyD

HD, that was a fair post, and I agree with some of your conclusions. I don't think there's evidence that she simply arrived at the conclusion that she wanted. We would need to assume she is unethical to make that charge. We can't possibly know that.

It is well written, and your concerns about church organization and the traditional interpretations of certain verses are fair criticisms.

I do think, though, that she has made the best case that I've ever read -- absolutely made for women participating in church life, and fair inroads into questions of women in church leadership positions.


70 posted on 12/28/2004 1:05:01 PM PST by xzins (The Party Spirit -- why I don't take the other side seriously!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; ScottM1968; The Grammarian; Corin Stormhands; topcat54
"I don't think there's evidence that she simply arrived at the conclusion that she wanted. We would need to assume she is unethical to make that charge."

I'm not saying she's being unethical-just bias. She is a pastor of a church so I doubt if she would objectively (intentionally or unintentionally) draw any other conclusion.

While she makes several good points I believe she ignores the entire context of 1 Timothy by not including an analysis Chapter 3 which is a continuation of Chapter 2. Although 1 Tim 3:1-7 talks about an "overseer" rather than a teacher or preacher, this seems to be a natural continuation from 1 Tim 2:12. Paul talks about this "overseer" as a man-not a woman-something I've pointed out earlier. Less there be any doubt about Paul's views on this subject there is always 1 Cor 14:34 which the author doesn't seems to address (unless I've missed it).

"The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says." 1 Cor 14:34

I stated she was liberal in the sense that I have read this view from a number of liberal women. One gets the sense that we are all God’s children, co-equal and co-serving. Many, if they could, would prefer to eliminate the male/female issues that occurs in the Bible. They have written such a “bible” for their purpose. I’m not suggesting this author would go so far but she did not address the issue of the “overseer” as a male and I suspect she would be resistant to this view since she is president of the Wesleyan Theological Society. While we may be co-equal, as I’ve stated before, God has a specific order of things.

The problem with our churches today is that men have abrogated their responsibilies. Women have stepped into roles that have been Biblically assigned and traditionally held by men. The fault isn’t with the women. The fault lies with the men. Barak was commanded by the Lord through Deborah to go after the Canaanites but he wouldn’t do it unless Deborah came with him. Because of the faithlessness of a man the Lord gave the victory to a woman, Jael. (Judges 4) IMO-the Lord has raised up faithful women because of faithless men. But it was never meant to be this way and the scriptures don’t support it.

100 posted on 12/29/2004 5:32:38 AM PST by HarleyD
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