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To: Aliska
If they have done serious research, I think they deserve consideration even if someone's ox gets gored.

My point being, anyone can make any claims that they want to. How can we determine "If they have done serious research", when you have provided no names, (and therefore their qualifications and potential personal agendas cannot be determined), and no source to be evaluated, no evidence to back up the claims.

14 posted on 12/16/2004 8:15:58 AM PST by murphE ("I ain't no physicist, but I know what matters." - Popeye)
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To: murphE
Here is one name; I can't take the time to look up the other one. I got this book on inter-library loan from a local catholic college:

Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mexican National Symbol by Stafford Poole (a Vincentienne priest)

It is the kind of book that you have to really concentrate on to follow the chronology and reasoning, almost take notes. Each chapter is built upon the previous developments, and it was a difficult read because his intellect far surpasses mine.

I don't have the time to look up the other priest who was in charge of the shrine for some years. It's out there on the net somewhere, but I'm not in "catholic heavy research mode right now". He didn't believe it was literally true and may have been one of the few who warned JPII before the canonization of Juan Diego. Anyway there is controversy surrounding him. They moved him somewhere and I read something on the net that may be spurious or caluminous about him so I'd prefer not to repeat it because I have no way of knowing if it is true or not.

My point on that is that "true believers" will often say negative things to discredit people who have taken a stand in opposition to theirs.

My personal research led me to a monastery in Spain where a very similar painting is owned. I can't go there to see for myself and read a travelougue that said photo taking was not allowed in there, but I would be very curious to compare that painting with the image (as is was originally; it is my understanding that details have been added from the original).

As to the alleged image in the eyes, I used to buy into that kind of stuff, too, but that far from clinches it for me now. Lots of things look like something they aren't.

If it makes people happy to take everything at face value, that is fine, but for me, when there are serious, legitimate doubts about one prodigy, it casts doubts on other ones.

I base my faith on scripture and the sacraments mainly and the teachings of the church that make sense, most of which do.

29 posted on 12/16/2004 10:57:46 AM PST by Aliska
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