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To: Mike10542
A) Most Christians do not believe in the rapture. NONE of the Christian churches that have any kind of liturgy regard it as anything except a heresy (so Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Catholics, etc. all regard it as heretical). Even those Christian churches which do not have liturgy do not all believe in it. Those that do are not united on what the rapture is or when it happens.

The entire rapture idea has been around for less than 200 years - it was invented by a Scottish pastor in the early 1800's who was excommunicated for heresy. He wrote the study notes to the Scofield Bible, which became quite popular in America and that Bible spread the idea in the US. Europeans have largely never heard of it and the rest of the world ignores it even more deeply. It's really just an American nutcase kind of thing.

If it were not for the Left Behind novels (which are about as well-researched as Dan Brown's The DA Vinci Code, which is to say, they aren't, the rapture concept would be pretty well unknown in this country too. Ignore the rapture - it's just a bunch of well-meaning ignorant people taking Scripture verses out of context.

B) Paul's letter to the Romans insists that Gentile Christians are only saved because we are grafted onto the source of salvation, Jewish Christians (Romans 11). Christ Himself testified that salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22). Christianity is the completion of Judaism, and Judaism is the source of Christianity.

C) Catholics know "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus" (#674 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church). The full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation is necessary for the Second Coming.

66 posted on 12/09/2004 12:11:22 AM PST by skellmeyer
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To: skellmeyer
"Most Christians do not believe in the rapture". Don't be a meschuga, please! Actually, most of the Christians do believe in it. As far your belief on the rapture being...invented and being "just an American nutcase kind of a thing" makes me smile and realize how the Pilgrims were regarded at first by Europeans and by non-believers. Just because you don't happen to agree with this belief, doesn't make the ones who do, using your own words, nutcases. What it does make you is intolerant. Your arguments are based on European views of Christianity when we sure know all about Europe's faith in God and its kindness to the Jews.
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
I Thessalonians 4:17 Then they who are alive, shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord.

86 posted on 12/09/2004 12:36:08 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: skellmeyer
Your statement in part A) illuminates a colossal ignorance on your part about the subject and subsequently about scriptural doctrine in general.

With respect to part B), your reference to Christ's statement is totally yanked out of context. John 4:22 is part of Jesus' discourse with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:6-30). The salient point of John 4:21,22 is Christ's dealing with the Samaritan's attempt at going off on a rabbit trail.

Jacob's Well is at the foot of Mount Gerizim toward which she pointed. Sanballat erected a temple on this mountain which was destroyed by John Hyrcanus B.C. 129. Abraham (Ge 12:7) and Jacob (Ge 33:20) set up altars at Shechem. On Gerizim were proclaimed the blessings recorded in De 28:1-68. The Samaritan Pentateuch records an altar set up on Gerizim that is on Ebal (over 200 feet higher than Gerizim) in the Hebrew (De 27:4). The Samaritans held that Abraham offered up Isaac on Gerizim. The Samaritans kept up this worship on this mountain and a handful do it still. The woman felt that by raising this theological wrangle she would turn the attention of Jesus away from herself and perhaps get some light on the famous controversy.

Christ had just shocked and embaressed the living crap out of the woman in v18 (so as usually is done today by people who can't argue the facts, they attempt to change the subject). This is also an excellent example of how to deal with people like that when one is witnessing to them.

Anyways, Christ's response in v21 intimated that the worship of God will be emancipated from bondage to place (the temple). Both Jews and Samaritans are wrong as to the "necessity" for that. Jesus told this sinful woman one of his greatest truths with that statement.

In v22 Jesus answers her attempt at diversion directly. The Samaritans rejected the prophets and the Psalms and so cut themselves off from the fuller knowledge of God. Jesus is a Jew as he fully recognizes (Mt 15:24). The Jews, as the chosen people, had fuller revelations of God (Ps 147:19; Ro 9:3-5). But even so the Jews as a whole failed to recognize God in Christ (Josh 1:11,18; 7:26). For salvation is from the Jews (hoti hê sôtêria ek tôn Ioudaiôn estin). "The salvation," the Messianic salvation which had long been the hope and guiding star of the chosen people (Lk 1:69,71,77; Ac 13:26,47). It was for the whole world (Jn 3:17), but it comes "out of" (ek) the Jews. This tremendous fact should never be forgotten, however unworthy the Jews may have proved of their privilege. The Messiah, God's Son, was a Jew.

And with respect to part C), "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus" (#674 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church), I'm absolutely baffled and flabbergasted how the Roman Catholic Church derives that doctrine cited in #647 from the scripture cited in the footnotes. The first footnote to #647 (569) refers to Romans 11:20-26. Romans 11:20-26 is Paul's warning to the Gentile's in Rome, not to boast because of their privleges, lest they fall under condemnation. The condemnation that he was referencing was God's treatment of Israel (Rm 10:19-11:12), specifically with respect to the Jews stiff-neckedness and rejection of the Gospel. And so since God's chosen people were passed over, and salvation is come unto Gentiles (v11,12).

In Rm 11:26 Paul refers to "the Deliverer", making reference to something that was written in the Old Testament: Ps 14:7 and Isa 59:20,21. The footnote to the latter part of #637 of the Roman Catholic Catechism that drives this point home: Romans 11:12, 25. Paul is telling the Romans that the Jews would be blind until the "fullness of the Gentiles came." Cross references to this time are found in Lk 21:24 and Re 7:9. Clearly what scripture is intimating, that the Jews would remain blind until Christ comes again, but when he does return, they'll see the error of their ways and be saved (just like the Gentiles until then).

Your entire point is demonstrative of fundementaly unsound doctrine premised upon exremely sloppy hermeneutic.

145 posted on 12/09/2004 4:58:25 AM PST by raygun
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To: skellmeyer

Bump!


147 posted on 12/09/2004 5:22:03 AM PST by AlbionGirl
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