Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542
Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:
1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)
2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?
3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)
I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)
Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.
Orthodox and Catholic and Protestant dogmas does say there is no salvation outside of their communions. Orthodox theology says we will not know until judgement day how Christ sets out judgement or rehabilitates those who were born into other religions and those that never heard of Christ.
Of course, Destro, the foundations of the Church are the Gospels, what Jesus taught. But the Church is a living organism of the faithful -- without the faithful there is no Church. As long as there are faithful, the Church (Militant, of course) will not be without sin.
As far as the Protestants go, Luther said there is no salvation outside of Christ, not the Church. It is only the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic who equate the Church and Christ (Savior).
Symantics. Christ's worldly presence is through the Church. It is his legacy. Now which Church is the direct heir or can any Church claim it is up to God to finally tell us on Judgement day.
Marmema: Absolutely untrue, according to the GOA site for one. I did a search before I replied to be sure I was speaking for the church.
Not absolutely. In it's proper context, the statment is right on the mark. Bear in mind that when the claim was first made (I forget which church father gets credit), there was only one Church. It was Catholic. It was Orthodox. There was no such thing as a Protestant. To be outside of this one church was to reject the teachings handed down by the Apostles. Nowadays, some people take the claim to mean that unless a person is Orthodox with a capital "O" (or Catholic with a capital "C") they are guaranteed to burn in hell. That is not entirely correct. Lest we forget, God will have mercy on whom God will have mercy.
There are people in this world who know nothing of the Orthodox Church. Well, you can't reject something you've never encountered. Others have heard of it, but reject it due to some kind of ignorance. For example, some think we worship icons. That's crazy, but that's what they think. And/Or they think the priesthood is anachronistic. Or whatever. You've heard the list, so I doubt I need to be exhaustive here. These people have obviously been misinformed. As you know, I was one such person. And as such, I can tell you that these misconceptions are not easily dispelled. However, once I was free from these things, no longer a slave to mendacious teachings, I was able to see Orthodoxy for what it really is. At that moment, in confrontation with the truth, I had to make a choice: accept or reject. But before that moment, I didn't really have that choice. I was still shackled to my misguided past, enslaved by lies.
To the best of my knowledge, the Orthodox Church does not claim to have cornered the market on salvation. The Truth that saves those who are Orthodox (with a capital "O") will be the same Truth that saves those who aren't. However, that is not the same thing as saying a person can reject the Orthodox Church without repercussion. To whom much is given, much will be expected. With that in mind, those who have been informed of the truth will be held accountable as such. And those who haven't... well,... God is merciful and can be trusted to judge them fairly.
In regards to the original question, I'm in agreement with kosta50 when he says, "Outside of Christ there is no salvation." That is true. Everyone who is, will be or has ever been saved is saved because of Christ. And this is without exception. Those who (do or would) reject Christ, in truth, will be judged accordingly.
I don't believe this generalization is true. What Protestant denominations say that in their statements of faith or similar documents?
Most Christian sects exclude non sect members from their communions.
My question is not about "most Christian sects", but specifally Protestant denominations. It is false, because almost all Protestant and non-denominational churches believe there is salvation in all Christian churches, not just their own and practice open communion. Those are the facts.
Not all do - but with Protestants who can say for sure since Pros flip and flop and fracture all over the place. Lutherans don't. I just posted an article to that fact a few days ago.
Your statement is still false in regards to Protestants and non-denominationalists.
Really? Then why don't the Protestants become Catholic again if it does not matter? The fact that there are Protestants means that they broke away fearing that there was no slavation in Catholic Church. Or did they break away so they could avoid speaking Latin?
Protestant and non-denominational churches do not believe that only their members are saved and they make no such claims, unlike the RCC. This is a fact, like it or not.
Again, with modern Protestants one can never tell - but the original movement did claim universal salvation outside of their churches.
Yes you "can tell" about modern Protestants, they don't make those exclusivity claims. And as far as the original Protestants, your proof?
Relax I was making a generalized statement in conversation mode. Think of this forum as us in atavern talking about stuff. I could look stuff up but it is not worth it. So you say Protestants by and large are not exclusive with their communion. Oh well. Bully for them I guess.
I'm quite familiar with the forum, I've made thousands of posts here. I just wanted to set the record straight about your statement. Thanks for the admission.
What do the Orthodox churches have to say about the ecclesial status of the patriarchs and prophets, and of St. Joseph, the Holy Innocents, and John the Baptist. None of these is believed to have been formally Christian, correct?
An excellent point. All are you mention are honored as saints with feast days, showing the Church's understanding that they are indeed saved.
The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth.[10] The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one.[11]
The approach taken in this paper is to emphasize "the middle way," that of inclusivism. It seems clear that the way of exclusivism is properly rejected as a matter of Truth. At the other extreme, the thin ice of cultural pluralism is fraught with danger."
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