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Question to Christians From a Jewish Friend
December 9, 2004 | Michael Katz

Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542

Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:

1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)

2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?

3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)

I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: endtimes; prophecy; rapture
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To: kosta50; MarMema

Orthodox and Catholic and Protestant dogmas does say there is no salvation outside of their communions. Orthodox theology says we will not know until judgement day how Christ sets out judgement or rehabilitates those who were born into other religions and those that never heard of Christ.


421 posted on 12/15/2004 7:13:45 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro
The Church's foundations are without sin - individuals within the community are for sure

Of course, Destro, the foundations of the Church are the Gospels, what Jesus taught. But the Church is a living organism of the faithful -- without the faithful there is no Church. As long as there are faithful, the Church (Militant, of course) will not be without sin.

422 posted on 12/15/2004 7:16:27 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Destro
Orthodox and Catholic and Protestant dogmas does say there is no salvation outside of their communions

As far as the Protestants go, Luther said there is no salvation outside of Christ, not the Church. It is only the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic who equate the Church and Christ (Savior).

423 posted on 12/15/2004 7:20:06 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
As far as the Protestants go, Luther said there is no salvation outside of Christ, not the Church. It is only the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic who equate the Church and Christ (Savior).

Symantics. Christ's worldly presence is through the Church. It is his legacy. Now which Church is the direct heir or can any Church claim it is up to God to finally tell us on Judgement day.

424 posted on 12/15/2004 7:36:39 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: MarMema; kosta50; 1 spark
kosta50: The Orthodox Church holds that there is no salvation outside the Church.

Marmema: Absolutely untrue, according to the GOA site for one. I did a search before I replied to be sure I was speaking for the church.

Not absolutely. In it's proper context, the statment is right on the mark. Bear in mind that when the claim was first made (I forget which church father gets credit), there was only one Church. It was Catholic. It was Orthodox. There was no such thing as a Protestant. To be outside of this one church was to reject the teachings handed down by the Apostles. Nowadays, some people take the claim to mean that unless a person is Orthodox with a capital "O" (or Catholic with a capital "C") they are guaranteed to burn in hell. That is not entirely correct. Lest we forget, God will have mercy on whom God will have mercy.

There are people in this world who know nothing of the Orthodox Church. Well, you can't reject something you've never encountered. Others have heard of it, but reject it due to some kind of ignorance. For example, some think we worship icons. That's crazy, but that's what they think. And/Or they think the priesthood is anachronistic. Or whatever. You've heard the list, so I doubt I need to be exhaustive here. These people have obviously been misinformed. As you know, I was one such person. And as such, I can tell you that these misconceptions are not easily dispelled. However, once I was free from these things, no longer a slave to mendacious teachings, I was able to see Orthodoxy for what it really is. At that moment, in confrontation with the truth, I had to make a choice: accept or reject. But before that moment, I didn't really have that choice. I was still shackled to my misguided past, enslaved by lies.

To the best of my knowledge, the Orthodox Church does not claim to have cornered the market on salvation. The Truth that saves those who are Orthodox (with a capital "O") will be the same Truth that saves those who aren't. However, that is not the same thing as saying a person can reject the Orthodox Church without repercussion. To whom much is given, much will be expected. With that in mind, those who have been informed of the truth will be held accountable as such. And those who haven't... well,... God is merciful and can be trusted to judge them fairly.

In regards to the original question, I'm in agreement with kosta50 when he says, "Outside of Christ there is no salvation." That is true. Everyone who is, will be or has ever been saved is saved because of Christ. And this is without exception. Those who (do or would) reject Christ, in truth, will be judged accordingly.

425 posted on 12/15/2004 7:52:37 AM PST by monkfan (Mercy triumphs over judgement)
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To: Destro
Orthodox and Catholic and Protestant dogmas does say there is no salvation outside of their communions.

I don't believe this generalization is true. What Protestant denominations say that in their statements of faith or similar documents?

426 posted on 12/15/2004 8:17:03 AM PST by Iowegian (Conservative evolutionist is an oxymoron)
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To: Iowegian

Most Christian sects exclude non sect members from their communions.


427 posted on 12/15/2004 8:25:03 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro

My question is not about "most Christian sects", but specifally Protestant denominations. It is false, because almost all Protestant and non-denominational churches believe there is salvation in all Christian churches, not just their own and practice open communion. Those are the facts.


428 posted on 12/15/2004 8:31:34 AM PST by Iowegian (Conservative evolutionist is an oxymoron)
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To: Iowegian

Not all do - but with Protestants who can say for sure since Pros flip and flop and fracture all over the place. Lutherans don't. I just posted an article to that fact a few days ago.


429 posted on 12/15/2004 8:44:09 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro
Yes, I agree that there a some, not many, that do not practice open communion (usually out of tradition). However that does not equate with the church claiming that only Lutherans are saved from damnation, to use your example.

Your statement is still false in regards to Protestants and non-denominationalists.

430 posted on 12/15/2004 8:50:26 AM PST by Iowegian (Conservative evolutionist is an oxymoron)
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To: Iowegian
However that does not equate with the church claiming that only Lutherans are saved from damnation, to use your example.

Really? Then why don't the Protestants become Catholic again if it does not matter? The fact that there are Protestants means that they broke away fearing that there was no slavation in Catholic Church. Or did they break away so they could avoid speaking Latin?

431 posted on 12/15/2004 8:56:05 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro
Your post is a total non-sequitor. Please stick to the facts.

Protestant and non-denominational churches do not believe that only their members are saved and they make no such claims, unlike the RCC. This is a fact, like it or not.

432 posted on 12/15/2004 9:03:17 AM PST by Iowegian (Conservative evolutionist is an oxymoron)
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To: Iowegian

Again, with modern Protestants one can never tell - but the original movement did claim universal salvation outside of their churches.


433 posted on 12/15/2004 9:11:24 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro
Can never tell? You have no facts to back you up so you resort to insults. Typical.

Yes you "can tell" about modern Protestants, they don't make those exclusivity claims. And as far as the original Protestants, your proof?

434 posted on 12/15/2004 9:17:42 AM PST by Iowegian (Conservative evolutionist is an oxymoron)
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To: Iowegian

Relax I was making a generalized statement in conversation mode. Think of this forum as us in atavern talking about stuff. I could look stuff up but it is not worth it. So you say Protestants by and large are not exclusive with their communion. Oh well. Bully for them I guess.


435 posted on 12/15/2004 9:35:38 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: Destro

I'm quite familiar with the forum, I've made thousands of posts here. I just wanted to set the record straight about your statement. Thanks for the admission.


436 posted on 12/15/2004 10:13:56 AM PST by Iowegian (Conservative evolutionist is an oxymoron)
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To: Iowegian
I made no "admission" and this is not a sparring match. Gee, I would hate to talk baseball with you. No offense was meant and I apologize if one was taken.
437 posted on 12/15/2004 10:25:04 AM PST by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorism by visiting johnathangaltfilms.com and jihadwatch.org)
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To: The_Reader_David

What do the Orthodox churches have to say about the ecclesial status of the patriarchs and prophets, and of St. Joseph, the Holy Innocents, and John the Baptist. None of these is believed to have been formally Christian, correct?


438 posted on 12/15/2004 10:41:05 AM PST by Romulus (Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?)
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To: Romulus

An excellent point. All are you mention are honored as saints with feast days, showing the Church's understanding that they are indeed saved.


439 posted on 12/15/2004 11:09:07 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know what this was)
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To: monkfan; The_Reader_David; 1 spark
An Orthodox scholar recently observed that there are basically three views that Christians have taken with regard to non-Christian religions. The first is that the non-Christian will be damned because there is no salvation outside the visible Body of Christ, the Church, The second is that the non-Christian may be saved in spite the religion he practices, but only through the mercy of God. The third is that the non-Christian may be saved by means of the very religion he practices, for nonChristian religions may also contain saving truths.[9] These three views parallel the three approaches identified elsewhere as exclusivism. inclusivism and cultural pluralism.

The claim of exclusivism has been rejected by many Orthodox scholars as untenable. This is not done in the interests of facilitating missionary endeavors or to foster world peace. Exclusiveness is rejected as a matter of Truth.[10] The majority of Orthodox scholars would accept inclusivism. Some Orthodox scholars espouse the view characterized as cultural pluralism but with qualifications. Relativism and syncretism are denied. And the view that Christianity is simply one of the world religions offering the blessing of salvation is not accepted. The focus, rather, is on the Spirit of God, the Paraclete, who leads us "Into all the truth," where in Christ all become one.[11]

The approach taken in this paper is to emphasize "the middle way," that of inclusivism. It seems clear that the way of exclusivism is properly rejected as a matter of Truth. At the other extreme, the thin ice of cultural pluralism is fraught with danger."

440 posted on 12/15/2004 11:33:15 AM PST by MarMema
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