Question to Christians From a Jewish Friend

December 9, 2004 | Michael Katz

[Mike10542]

Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:

1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)

2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?

3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)

I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.

[fire_eye]

I read somewhere recently that you have to have a Jewish mother to be considered Jewish. That was the first I'd heard of that... (I *had* heard that you had to have a Jewish mother to be *neurotic* enough to be Jewish - but *I'm* living proof that *that* is pure bullschumer...)

I can find something in any religion that I like, that none of the other religions have (even Islam, although that won't deter me for an instant from exterminating it forthwith if it doesn't stop yelling and throwing things.)

[bperiwinkle7]

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I [am] the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way [that] thou shouldest go.

The theology of the Triune G-d can be found here.
The context of the speaker in verse 16 rules out his being Israel, but is rather the Sent One, the Messiah.

[judicial meanz]

IIRC,Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism accept patrilineal lineage if the child meets certain requirements. The Orthodox and Conservative Sects of Judaism only recognize matrilineal lineage.

Talmidi, Chabad, Karaite, and the others, I dont know enough to comment about.

Take care man!

[Safrguns]

What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. I didn't catch this before... sorry... The rapture is not related to the death of anyone. Where did you get this?... that -during- the rapture Jews are killed?

[Safrguns]

Oops... sorry. question was meant for Mike.

[M Kehoe]

I don't normally respond to vanities, but this one might get interesting...

I kinda wish A+ Bert was still around.

5.56mm

[Safrguns]

You stated that pre-tribulation is disproven. Obviously your not a pre-tribber.
While I don't want to get into that debate here, I do have a question for you.

What are your convictions on eternal security?

I promise... I'm not baiting. I see a connection I would like to explore on my own. Are all pre-tribbers also of the belief that one cannot lose their salvation? Are all post-tribbers of the belief that you can?

Any pre-tribbers out there that believe you can lose your salvation?

[Osage Orange]

I kinda wish A+ Bert was still around.

Glad you said "kinda"...... : )

FRegards,

[Harrymehome]

No such thing. The Holy Word does not teach that anywhere.

[Safrguns]

No eternal security? You -can- lose your salvation?
was that your answer?

Thanks

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Those who accept Christ as their savior will be saved. Those who do not will be cast out in the end times. Makes no difference if you are Jewish, Muslim, Hindi, Baptist or Catholic. Accept Jesus as your personal savior and give control of your life over to Him and you shall enjoy eternal lif through Him. Simple.

[Harrymehome]

Does that mean we're free to disregard YHWH's commandments and just accept Yh'shua as Saviour? Note what it says in

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

That verse tells me that there is more to salvation than just accepting Yh'shua as Saviour. Let me elaborate a bit more. That doctrine or teaching of accepting Yh'shua is closely related to the teaching that we're under grace and all we need to get to heaven is to believe and have faith. That's part of it, but there's a lot more to the story. This teaching, alone without the rest of the story, is very dangerous. It gives one the feeling of security and at the same time allows for the transgression of the law. (1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.)
It's like trying to have your cake and eating it also. YHWH knows the heart and repeated breaking of his commandments with non remorseful, non-sincere repentant prayers are an abomination to YHWH. (Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. ) That means all his law including the 4th commandment of keeping the Sabbath (Saturday) holy. The 7th day according to the Bible is Saturday. Not Sunday. This teaching does not originate from the Soldiers of the Cross, The 7th Day Adventist, The Wide World Church of God or any other Sabbath keeping group. It's author and origin is YHWH. And it is perpetual (that means never ending).

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

May YHWH Bless You in your search for the TRUTH.

[1 spark]

Where does it say in Hebrew Scriptures wthat God can not do or be?

Hebrew Scripture clearly tells us that God is not a man, and that He is ONE God, alone.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, else he might lie,
neither is God the Son of Man, else he might change his mind.
Has he said, and shall not do?
or has he spoken, and shall not make it so?

Hosea 11:9

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger,
I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I [am] God, and not man;
the Holy One in the midst of thee:
and I will not enter into the city.

According to OT scripture, the messiah was to be annointed by God but not God's equal or part of a trinity. The Jews were told over and over and over again that God is ONE.

Deut: 32: 36-41

36) For their rock is not as our Rock,
even our enemies themselves being judges.
37)For their Vine is of the Vine of Sodom,
and of the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are grapes of gall,
their clusters are bitter!
38) YAHWEH will judge his people, and have compassion...
39) And he shall say, "Where are their gods?
Their 'Rock' in whom they trusted?
40) Those who ate the fat of their sacrifices?
and drank the wine of their Drink offering?
Oh, let them rise up and help you, and be your protection!
41)See now that I myself am 'HE',
and there are no other deities with me."

Zech 14: 1 & 9

1)Behold, the day of YAHWEH comes,
and your plunder shall be divided among you...
9)And YAHWEH shall be king over all the earth on that day,
and 'YAHWEH' shall be his one and only name.

Psalm 83:16-18

16) Fill their faces with shame so that they may seek your name, O YAHWEH.
17) Let them be confounded and troubled forever, and be put to shame, and perish,
18)so that men may know that you, whose name is 'YAHWEH', alone, are the most high over all the earth.

ISAIAH 43:11-12

11) I, yes I, am YAHWEH.
And apart from me there is no other saviour.
12) I have revealed and redeemed and proclaimed.
I did this, and not some other among you."

ISAIAH 45:5-6

I am YAHWEH, and there is no one else,
there is no deity beside me.
I strengthened you, though you did not acknowledge me,
So that they may know,
from the rising of the sun
, and from the west,
that there is no one beside me.
I am YAHWEH, and there is no one else.

Isaiah 45:19-22

19)I have not spoken in secret,
in a dark place of the earth.
I did not say to the descendents of Jacob,
"You seek me in vain",
I, YAHWEH, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.
20) Assemble yourselves and come,
draw near together, you who have escaped from the Gentile Nations.
They who set up the wood of their graven image,
and pray to a god that cannot save,
have no knowledge.
21)Tell all, and bring them near.
Yes, let them take counsel together:
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, YAHWEH?
And there is no other deity beside me,
a just god and a saviour.
There is no one beside me.
22) Look to me, and be saved,
all the ends of the earth.
For I am YAHWEH, and there is no one else.

Hosea 13:4

Yet I am YAHWEH, your god from the land of Egypt,
and you shall know no god but me,
for there is no saviour beside me.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, else he might lie,
neither is God the Son of Man, else he might change his mind.
Has he said, and shall not do?
or has he spoken, and shall not make it so?

[1 spark]

Of course it was evolving. Judaisam evolved too.

The deity of YHWH is a constant in Judaism. My point was that Jesus was not considered God in the flesh, early on. The church, over time and with force, turned him into God. He was a devout Jew. His intention was not to start a brand new religion where the masses worshipped him instead of YHWH. Rather he tried to get people to understand that God is loving and in control. He came preaching the "gospel"...that is the "good news". What was the "good news"? What he preached and what Constantinian Christianity emphasizes are 2 very different things.

let's not pretend that there is some magical "bond" between the Jews and Christians.

Hello...you're preaching to the choir here. Unlike you, I believe much of what the church taught and did, helped contribute to world wide anti-semitism as well as the Holocaust. I wouldn't call that a love bond. (Go to Amazon...and check out "Constantine's Sword" and other books like it....or google search "The church and the holocaust". Try to look at numerous sources, not just the Catholic ones.) The Pope didn't offer the way late, lacking, semi-apology for nothing, you know. But God bless him for being the one to finally acknowledge something.

If you wish to believe Jesus was "just a man" that is your prerogative as much as it is someone's who says "There is no God." It doesn't change anything; least of all God.

I do believe that Jesus was "just a man". And God used him in His perfect plan to show that we, who are also human, can be like Jesus in his connection to the Almighty.

The only reason I got on the thread is because the Jewish poster called Christians to pray that Muslims go to hell and I said that's not what we teach.

Original poster said that part was a joke in post 22. I got on the thread in hopes of letting the original poster know that there are legitimate alternatives to the Christian ultimatum of "believe this way or you'll burn in hell." It is noteworthy, to me, that of the 3 monotheistic religions, only the Jews don't issue such an ultimatum.

BTW - I am not Jewish (....yet?). I still celebrate Christmas in honor of Jesus, the (IMO) "man", who taught us about God, what He expects of us, and how He loves us. Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[kosta50]

Christian ultimatum of "believe this way or you'll burn in hell." It is noteworthy, to me, that of the 3 monotheistic religions, only the Jews don't issue such an ultimatum

That is the Western Christian approach which, I might say, often lacked two main components of what Jesus taught -- mercy and compassion. The Eastern Orthodox do not issue such threats -- we say "do this so you can be with God." Maybe you should study that side of Christianity as well.

Many a prominent Christian (Augustine, Chrysostom, Luther, Calvin, etc.) were not kind towards the Jews. Even if Jesus were not the Son of God, killing Him in exchange for Barabbas, a criminal, was offensive enough. The Babylonians wree not kind to the Jews and neither wre the Egyptians, and neither wree Romans. Did they contribute to anti-Semtism? If so, the whole world has, at one time or another.

What people do with religion and how they corrupt is is best exemplified by the various indecent events that took place and hundreds of thousands of people who died in the name of God, by people "defending" God (as if He needs us to defend Him!).

Christianity is the NT. What people do in its name is not Christianity but acts of individuals who hide behind it. Condemn the individuals but don't confuse Christianity with individual Christians any more than confusing what American ideals with individula acts of Americans that violate them.

Thank you very much for biblical references in the previous post. I will have to study how the early Church (not Constantine) reconciled them, and that is very important.)

[k2blader]

Anyone who believes he can redeem himself is not a Christian.

[k2blader]

Thank you, Nathaniel. We are on the same page. :-)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

This whole thread started with a call for Jews and Christians to form a united front against a common enemy. There are two billion Christian on this earth and a trickle of Jews.

Typical suppercessionist rhetoric. (if you don't know what it is, look it up) There are estimates that this trickle of Jews, apprx 13 million, would be upwards of 250 million today had it not been for the sword of Constantine, crusades, inquisitions, holacaust, infatada (sp) etc., etc. So I wouldn't gloat too much.

[kosta50]

You do realize that most of these quotes (exception being in Number 23:19), where God speaks for Himself, the Word is not mutually excluded (as John 1:1 asserts). God is our Savior. He and only He can be.

Regarding Numbers 23:19 -- can be read differently than you intended: it doesn't say God cannot assume the form of a man, or become incarnate, it merely states that unlike a man God does not lie, nor change His mind (although there are many hints in the OT that He does change his mind and even regrets [!] His decisions).

It's the "Son of Man" that is of interest because, as you know, Jesus is both the Son of God (His generate Word) incarnate as Son of Man.

In Hebrew the term used is "ben adam" (son of man, a descendent of humans starting with the man -- Adam). Of course, Jesus is not a descendent of Adam according to Christian belief but a second Adam, one Who does not break communion with the Father.

The original Greek (the oldest OT source, the Septuagint, 180 BC) simply uses the words "huios anthropou" or simply a son of a human being, which is also consistent with the teaching of the Church and therefore this apparent contradiction is not a contradiction at all.

The New Testament has verses referring to Jesus as God and verses that refer to Him as Man. Thus, the orthodox teaching of the Church was always that He had two natures -- one fully divine and one fully human. Most of the early heresies were regarding His natures (monophysites, etc.).

[kosta50]

Typical suppercessionist rhetoric. (if you don't know what it is, look it up)

My point was -- you can't even spell supersessionist.

As for the mighty trickle, there are one billion Muslims in this world -- and growing. If you didn't have these horrible Christians on your side, what would be left of that trickle?

We could also argue that if the plague didn't kill off half of Europe, Genghis Khan didn't sack it, WWI didn't happen and if some 20 million Russians didn't perish in WWII who knows how many billions of people would we have.

You need to lighten up. It's bad for your health to be so full of misdirected hate. No doubt individual Christians were less than kind in words and often in deeds towards Jews (St Chrysostom and Martin Luther to name just two), but the Gospels teach nothing of the sort. Human wickedness twists even love into something ugly.

Christianity does not teach anti-Semnitism. Christianity is not the root of it. Let's get that straight.