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Mel and the Maccabees
beliefnet ^ | 12/06/04 (received in e-mail) | David Klinghoffer

Posted on 12/06/2004 6:28:52 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator

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To: Moorings
I love those Maccabees. Its a great story. However, I think the author of this article has got some facts wrong. The Maccabees were not stronger or numerically more powerful. They fought against all odds to defeat the Greeks.

You're right, and it's strange that he would make that mistake. One of the miracles of Chanukkah is that G-d gave "the many into the hands of the few." This is very important. According to Greek philosophy (which took account only of the physical and the rational) the few cannot defeat the many. The defeat of the many by the few was a supernatural miracle attesting to the existence of HaShem and unseen, spiritual realities.

Those Maccabee brothers and their daddy were a tough bunch.

Hey, see my Chanukkah tag line!

41 posted on 12/07/2004 6:58:33 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: rmlew
Why is the term "Palestine" used for Judea or Israel? Klinghoffer should know better. Or is Beliefnet openly palestinianist?

I've no idea, other than convention. "Israel" signifies a people primarily rather than a land. But today's "palestinians" named themselves after the land, not vice versa. Besides, prior to statehood the Jews were called "Palestinians!"

42 posted on 12/07/2004 7:00:54 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: xJones
"How we going to keep Christians down on their farms, after they've seen Passion?"

Hey, Jews have farmed too (someone had to raise all those firstfruits and sacrificial animals!).

The great unwashed goys might even enjoy movies about secular vs. religious Jews, and then....oy vey! (slapping head). They'll have a take-an orthodox-Jew-to-lunch, and pogroms for the rest

Just let the Torah Sages handle the business of dealing with the various `arei niddachat. And no appeals to "unity" or "diversity"--after all, the worshippers of the Golden Calf were "good Jews" of a more liberal outlook!

43 posted on 12/07/2004 7:04:45 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: Inyokern
The problem with Gibson making a film about Chanukkah, in which the Orthodox Jews are the heroes and the Hellenized Jews are the villians, is that it was Hellenized Jews, such as Matthew, who became the first Christians.

Which means . . . ? (Draw your own conclusions, folks!)

Judah Maccabee would not have looked upon Christianity any more kindly than he looked upon Dionysus-worship.

Hey, if the Nazarenes can claim Moses and David as heroes, then Yehudah HaMaqqevi can be a hero as well! (And the old pre-Vatican II, "anti-Semitic" Catholic Church used to have a feast day for "the Holy Maccabees").

44 posted on 12/07/2004 7:09:14 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: BlackElk

Have you been pinged to this article yet? You're a nice guy.


45 posted on 12/07/2004 7:10:01 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: Alouette
Does it mention anything about Howard Fast being a member of CPUSA?

So this means he looked on the PLO as the "Maccabees" of his day, right?

Downright weird how someone could write a book on the Maccabees and then turn around and support "de masses of de rewolutionary Arab pipples."

46 posted on 12/07/2004 7:12:22 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker

Your history is a little confused.

The Jewish tradition is that prophecy ended with the death of Ezra, and the Hebrew Bible was closed soon thereafter. This was about the time of Alexander, well before the time of the Maccabees. This was about 70 years before the Septuagint.

Christianity is a completely different religion and is of course entitled to set its own standards of prophecy and canon.


47 posted on 12/07/2004 7:14:24 AM PST by hlmencken3 ("...politics is a religion substitute for liberals and they can't stand the competition")
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To: Alouette
It says he was awarded the Stalin Peace Prize(?!?) in 1953 but broke with the Party later in the decade.

Could it be that he was a hard-liner who was opposed to de-Stalinization?

48 posted on 12/07/2004 7:16:01 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The Authors stand seems patently clear...

Letting Gibson alone would maximize the chances of our avoiding a whole string of heavy-handed, biblically-inspired historical dramas with contemporary relevance.

Yes, God forbid we should assess contemporary culture against time tested values....rme..

49 posted on 12/07/2004 7:17:44 AM PST by hobbes1 (Hobbes1TheOmniscient® "I know everything so you don't have to" ;)
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To: Theophane
I think that what many miss here is that the Maccabees are a great source of inspiration for traditionalist Catholics, as they heroically held out against the Hellenizers (read modernists, or...well, whatever) of their day, even those in the clergy. And, of course, they execrated the Abomination of Desolation--to which some would draw modern (e.g. Assisi 1986) parallels. I have the hunch that this is why Mel is so interested in the Maccabees.

100% true. Chanukkah is all about the victory of embattled tradition over the forces of "enlightenment" and "progress," and it is a dirty shame that its heroes have been cast as forerunners of the American Civil Liberties Union. That myth needs to be exploded once and for all.

The Feast of the Holy Maccabees was celebrated on august 1 ("lammas day"). Then the Church got "philo-Semitic" and started subscribing to German Protestant Biblical criticism!

One sad thing here is that so many traditionalist Roman Catholics (with whom I sympathize despite the vast gulf between our beliefs) see the Jews as the "hidden hand" behind everything bad that has happened in the past two millenia, including Copernicanism, Masonry, and the aforementioned German Protestant Biblical criticism.

I can hardly wait.

Let's hope he actually does this. Right now it's just talk.

50 posted on 12/07/2004 7:21:39 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
To me, it appears that the Gospel of St. Mark is an abridgement of St. Matthew,

That makes no sense at all. The Gospel of Mark contains errors regarding Jewish doctrine, dates of holidays and Judean geography which were corrected in Matthew. Why would the author of Mark change things which were correct in Matthew and make them wrong?

51 posted on 12/07/2004 7:21:48 AM PST by Inyokern
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To: Pharmboy
After revelations of Stalin's terror in the Soviet Union, Fast left the Communist Party. Fast gradually overcame the blacklisting of the McCarthy era and became one of the most productive American writers of his time.

Where did he stand on the Israel/Arab conflict?

PS: Spartacus is a cult figure to the far Left as evidenced by the many "Spartacist" leagues and the use of that name by (dare I mention the name???) Adam Weishaupt.

52 posted on 12/07/2004 7:24:03 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: hlmencken3
The story is universally known, but like Purim, it is not in the Hebrew Bible. But Purim has the Scroll of Esther, also in the Apocrypha, but Chanukah does not use a 'Scroll of the Maccabees'.

Hey! The Megillah is most definitely in the TaNa"KH and not in any "apocrypha," which is why so many Puritans and rednecks were named Mordecai! You really slipped up there, hl!

There is a scroll of the Maccabees and it is read in some communities like the Megillah on Purim, but it isn't in the TaNa"KH.

One explanation for this is that the battle portrayed by Chanukah is still being fought: The story is not over!

The `Eirev Rav will be the last enemy to be defeated!

53 posted on 12/07/2004 7:28:16 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: Robert Drobot
Do you happen to know when the film production begins?

Nope. Unfortunately, so far as I know he's just thinking about making the picture at this point.

54 posted on 12/07/2004 7:30:07 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (If Chanukkah celelbrates "religious freedom," why did Mattityahu cut the man's head off???)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Gibson, it is reported, has his heart set on doing a movie version of the story commemorated by Hanukkah.

Ya can't miss when you've good material!


55 posted on 12/07/2004 7:30:22 AM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
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To: hlmencken3

The Book of Esther, containing the account of Purim, is part of the Tanach.


56 posted on 12/07/2004 7:32:23 AM PST by rightwingcrazy
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To: dubyaismypresident

Two books that appear in the Old Testament of this bible that are not in the Protestant Old Testament are 1 Machabees and 2 Machabees.


There's that evil Catholicism of Mel rearing it's ugly head again.
I'd go see it.


57 posted on 12/07/2004 7:34:49 AM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
The Jews; Story of a People by Howard Fast

Encompassing four thousand years, the history of the Jews is a vast epic of such magnificent complexity that perhaps only a master story-teller can render it in all its color and grandeur. Now, in this stirring, deeply moving book, Howard Fast has woven for us not only the history of this people, but the history of a monotheistic concept and a nonviolent ethic.

He begins by recreating for us the harsh, nomadic life of the original children of Israel, the fierce confederation of tribes that once wandered the deserts of the Sinai Peninsula, the Negev, and Jordan. In time the Beni Yisrael would conquer and hold the walled cities of Palestine. They would worship the God of Moses. In time, during the reigns of David and Solomon, the Children of Israel would build an empire -- but curiously enough, their real center of power would be embodied not by king or aristocracy but by the nabi, or prophet, who spoke for mankind in the name of a just God who wept for the sufferings of his Chosen People. When the empire crumbled, the Jews would retain their identity as a people with a unique relationship to their God.

The coming of Christianity brought with it a hatred that would drive the Jews "from place to place, from city to city, from country to country," and the last two thousand years of Jewish history is the story of the Diaspora. Howard Fast writes eloquently of the great cultural achievements of the Sephardic Jews of Spain. He traces the Diaspora through Italy, Greece, and Turkey and then into northern and eastern Europe. His richly detailed account of the great immigration of the Ashkenazi Jews to the United States in the early years of this century and the growth of the teeming, vigorous Jewish community in New York City will be of particular interest. The final chapters of this book are concerned with the Nazi holocaust and its aftermath; the return of the Jew to Palestine and the founding of the State of Israel; and a discussion of the Jew's as yet unresolved role in future history.

Written with a power and passion that does full justice to its subject and handsomely illustrated, this book is an exciting and illuminating reading experience for young and old.

from the dust jacket of the 1968 Dial Press first edition

58 posted on 12/07/2004 7:36:01 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; Inyokern

Wasn't Mark an associate of Peter? I seem to recall reading that.


59 posted on 12/07/2004 7:37:27 AM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
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To: rightwingcrazy

The story of Purim took place in the generation before Ezra.


60 posted on 12/07/2004 7:48:42 AM PST by hlmencken3 ("...politics is a religion substitute for liberals and they can't stand the competition")
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