Alacarte - The shroud is evidence of the ressurection? Good grief man! How exactly does some strange (to christians) old piece cloth provide evidence that a supernatural event occurred 2000 years ago?
JFK_Lib - Well, that is for forensic investigation to uncover. A good site for such information is: http://www.historicaljesusquest.com/
A quote from them:
"If the Shroud of Turin is fake, then many centuries ago someone forged these pictures of Jesus on the cloth. With forensic science, we should be able to figure out how it was done. If the Shroud is the real burial cloth of Jesus, as many believe it is, then with a bit of CSI-style thinking we should be able to figure out how the pictures of Jesus came to be on this cloth?
.....
Until recently the prima facie CSI-like case for forgery seemed strong. Now, for the first time, we have new forensic science data. Much of it didn't come to light until 2004. And because of this new information, the enigma of the pictures of Jesus on the Shroud of Turin becomes even more intriguing and perhaps more difficult to solve. The fan of CSI, the student of forensic science, and all of us should be challenged to try and figure out what is going on here.
Let's be clear. Let's be clear in forensic science and CSI terms. No one has figured out how these pictures came to be on the cloth; not if it was faked and not if it is real.
Let's also be clear in a forthright CSI way of thinking, the carbon 14 testing has been so challenged by modern forensic science (as recently reported by National Geographic News and PBS) that is fails the test of reasonable doubt. The honest CSI is left with no option but to admit that there is no evidence from forensic science that the cloth is medieval."
Apparently some investigators have had some theories of how the images could have naturally formed on the cloth, and this would be an example of scientifically established material evidence of something that may quite likely have been supranatural.
But a materialist could never accept such a hypothesis and thus enters the investigation with his mind already made up that the Shroud is a fake despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. This same kind of prejudice is at work in dismissing ID as Creationism in sheeps clothing.
Alacarte - Wow. If your all powerful deity wanted us to know he existed, he would just do it. He wouldn't leave inane artifacts around for us to extrapolate from.
JFK_Lib - What arrogance to imagine that if the Creator of the universe is not behaving the way you think, in all your infinite wisdom no doubt, then He is not valid!
LOL! ! !
Alacarte - God spoke? The existence of the universe proves god, because god made the universe? In that case, I submit that I made the universe, so since the universe exists, I am the all powerful deity. Please send all your money to... Please tell me you understand why you get ridiculed by scientists?
JFK_Lib - Hohum, it is so sad to see ones opposite in a debate resort to mischaracterization and straw man arguements. That is not what I claimed, so why do you waste your time with such absurdity?
Alacarte - Your logic is really inconsistent. There was a time when people believed in witches and goblins. According to your logic then, since at one time they were commonly thought to exist, then they did exist. I presume then that they all died out from our non-belief?
JFK_Lib - Witches do in fact exist, their faith is called 'Wicca', and whether or not they can genuinely cast a spell ot not is what is debatable, not that they exist - that is a fact.
Alacarte - You are being terribly amusing now. So before the invention of christianity... let's choose greece. In ancient greece, everyone believed and feared the gods, does that mean that zeus and athena were real? But now they aren't? What of the other 6000 religions man has invented? Why is your god special?
JFK_Lib - The ancient 'gods' were demonic in nature, though their concept had been originally quite likely based on a universal God and then degenerated from there. Their gods were idols, and impotent. What makes my God real is that he is not some image but is universal and HE has promised results that I have seen in my life and this is a phenomenum that many others have seen also.
That is why the Abrahamic faiths have not remained restricted to merely tribal/ethnic limits but now have grown to cover all the Earth and now it is safe to say a majority of the worlds population believes in Abrahams God. One day it will be just about everyone.
Zeus never approached anything of this nature as he was far more symbol than substance and what there was of the latter was evil.
Alacarte - I'm not interested in debating theology with you.
JFK_Lib - Ah, so now it is not something to debate; I guess this only follows from the lack of thought given by you on the subject at any scale.
Alacarte - The christian religion has about a thousand different ways to get into heaven, depending on who you talk to. You'd think the almighty deity would have a better communications department.
JFK_Lib - God reaches out to us as we are; beings limited by our life experiences, language, intelligence, and will to seek Truth. Who are you to judge Him for His Mercy and Tolerance?
Alacarte - Since when is the ability to procreate a virtue? People in the third world spawn like rabbits, does that make them better than the west? Sheesh.
JFK_Lib - Well according to Darwin it does. They will survive us and prove our less fitness for continuing.
Alacarte - What do Castro, Stalin and Mao have to do with humanism? They were/are about as interested in humanistic values as the inquisition.
JFK_Lib - According to their own claims they were humanists, the only difference is that they were willing to break a few eggs. But they are materialistic atheists everyone and the proof of the badness of an amoral view of life and humanity, even supposedly humanistic views. Without God their is nothing good that can endure.
Alacarte - Atheism is not a religion, ....
JFK_Lib - Of course it is, just as the number '0' is still a number though void of quantity. Atheism makes religious assertions and is thereby a religious faith, and its lack of a formal organization is no more relevant than it is for Primitive Baptists.
Alacarte - This conversation has deteriorated into what any real conversation about religion eventually does, philosophy. Things like: "The universe exists, therefore my god did it. If you can't prove I'm wrong, then I must be right."
JFK_Lib - But philosophy is what the debate has ALWAYS been about, despite your refusal to engage in rational discussion on it. Science is built upon philosophical axioms, such as that the universe is governed in some since by forces that are capable of being modeled in the form of human concepts and expressed in human language.
That is a huge presumption, but was once based on the Christian faith that states the Universe reflects the orderly Mind of God. This is why Christianity alone accepted science at a populare level because it was accpted in principle by the general population.
By comparison the Greek Atomists were generally ignored in favor of the mystery religions and the ancient world saw no point to the Atomists speculations and if they gbecame inconvenient they were killed without a second thought.
Alacarte - As for science, religion needs to be kept where it belongs, in the realm of pointless philosophy. I was raised a christian and my parents are still christian. I know how powerful the brainwashing is, it took years to de-program myself.
JFK_Lib - No, scientists need to be reminded of the limits of science; it is not the sole source of knowledge and Truth but only one of many. And when materialists like you try to piggy-back your atheistic materialism on science you do it a disservice.
I am glad to know you have Christian parents, as this suggests that there maybe hope for you. But I doubt it as you are too proud to even try to comprehend what your opposites are verbally claiming, much less what the entire mysteries of a silent unviverse are about.
And yes, the prejudice and bigotry of materialists keep Christians from moving openly among the ranks of scientists and are purged when discovered. ID will eventually get its day, but it may be only at the cost of existing scientific institutions becoming replaced.
Merry Christmas and take care.
"Alacarte - Atheism is not a religion, ....
JFK_Lib - Of course it is, just as the number '0' is still a number though void of quantity. Atheism makes religious assertions and is thereby a religious faith, and its lack of a formal organization is no more relevant than it is for Primitive Baptists."
Atheism makes no assertions at all. It is a lack of theism. A lack of something is not something in itself. Or can you explain to me what apathy asserts?
Here is a better analogy: The number zero is not a positive number.
"And yes, the prejudice and bigotry of materialists keep Christians from moving openly among the ranks of scientists and are purged when discovered."
I can see that anyone who bases science on untestable assumptions will be purged sure. A raelian scientist who bases a theory on the untestable assumption that aliens created humans will be "purged" too. People can have these beliefs but they can only be included in science if they can be tested. Abuse of the scientific method in science, not personal beliefs, leads to degraded reputation.
"ID will eventually get its day, but it may be only at the cost of existing scientific institutions becoming replaced."
ID has had over 100 years to "get its day". Modern ID arguments are essentially the same as creationist arguments 100 years ago. "It's really complicated! I don't see how it could happen!". This is a nice argument for personal disbelief in natural mechanisms - the same kind of argument cavemen probably used to explain lightning and rainbows as the product of magic.
ID is best supported when we know nothing about nature. That says it all. If scientists have a natural tendancy to support their own pre-conceptions then ID scientists would be by far the worst kind. Naturalistic scientists would at least be spurred to seek natural mechanisms. ID scientists have no drive to study anything, as any natural mechanisms found can only weaken ID.