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To: Stubborn
Well, the pagan in the far east was inclined to seek out God. Its the reason that God wrote His laws in our hearts as Jer. 31:31-34 dictates. If they did not adhere to God's commands, they ended up with Cain, in Hell.

Thanks again for your reply. I don't want to go on forever, but I just want to comment on the above.

You seem to be saying, that in the time of the old law, men could read the natural law written on their hearts by God, and at least believe in him, and serve him according to this natural law. In doing so, they could avoid ending up with Cain in hell, and therefore, be saved - without water baptism and outside the Church in the formal sense. Is the correct, or does this contradict the proclamations of the Church regarding EENS?

If this is correct, it is entirely logical to progress this forward past the day of Pentecost (the promulgation of the new law), through the ages when the pagans were not yet evangelised, and even to the present day. These may well be exceptions that God, and God alone can take care of, but one problem is that people put the exceptions in the place of the de fide teachings of the Church and use them instead.

I actually heard that the preparatory documents of Vatican II included the issue of the destination of unbaptised infants (from memory). Given what actually came out of the Council, it's probably providential that issue was dropped - the work of the Holy Spirit at the Council? :-)

155 posted on 11/25/2004 5:43:00 AM PST by davidj
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To: davidj
You seem to be saying, that in the time of the old law, men could read the natural law written on their hearts by God, and at least believe in him, and serve him according to this natural law. In doing so, they could avoid ending up with Cain in hell, and therefore, be saved - without water baptism and outside the Church in the formal sense. Is the correct, or does this contradict the proclamations of the Church regarding EENS?

This is correct and in no way contradicts EENS, simply because the New Law is the fulfilment of the old, not a contradiction.

If this is correct, it is entirely logical to progress this forward past the day of Pentecost (the promulgation of the new law), through the ages when the pagans were not yet evangelised, and even to the present day. These may well be exceptions that God, and God alone can take care of, but one problem is that people put the exceptions in the place of the de fide teachings of the Church and use them instead.

Yes and no. "Yes" because God can make exceptions as He sees fit, and as you said, thats exactly what they would be - exceptions.

"No" because we must believe that the message of salvation reached "all nations" as commanded by Our Lord to to the Apostles (John 28:19), as well as, to name but a few, St. Paul's account as told in Acts 1:8 and Rom. 10:18 that at some point before the death of the last Apostle, St. John, the Faith had been brought to every part of the world.

This being the case, we know that at one time, everyone "heard the news" and as such were aware of the requirements necessary for salvation. Those who died as unbelieving pagans, without exception, went to hell, period.

We cannot say with certainty that there even were "pagans who were not yet evangelised", but we can, with all confidence, say as St. Paul narrates in Rom. 10:18 that "Yes", the whole world got the message.

158 posted on 11/25/2004 6:52:46 AM PST by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
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