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To: Stubborn; Pio; bornacatholic; MarMema; pachomi33; kosta50; FormerLib

I find it fascinating that some of you would quote, accurately, +Cyprian of Carthage as writing that "Outside the Church there is no salvation!" and then proceed to tie that into the Roman Catholic Church and submission of the all to the Roman Pope. Do you know the history of that phrase? +Cyprian was in a fight with Pope Stephen over the latter's assertion that baptisms performed by heretics, though proper in form, were invalid. +Cyprian took the opposite position and had powerful theological and hierarchic allies throughout No. Africa and the East. During the fight, Pope Stephen wrote asserting universal dominion over the Church and demanding submission of all to the Roman Papacy. +Cyprian responded with a forceful attack on Pope Stephen's unheard of innovation of universal authority and proclaimed that Stephen's authority was no greater than his own! I suspect that +Cyprian would be very surprised that modern, conservative Roman Catholics would tie his defense of Orthodox Christianity with a requirement that all Christians submit to the Pope of Rome in order to be saved or that his formulation applied to the "Roman" Catholic Church. Now, if you want to claim that the non Ecumenical decrees of post schism councils, or the writings and dictates of various Popes proclaim that there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church, that's fine. Rome has come up with all sorts of innovations since the last Ecumenical Council, but don't try to fool the unlettered faithful with claims that +Cyprian bought into your characterization of the Church or the authority of Rome, or bolster your medieval Western claims by invoking his name!

By the way, +Cyprian's position on baptism won out and is what the Church, East and West, teaches to this day, the fulminations of the then Pope of Rome to the contrary notwithstanding.


100 posted on 11/24/2004 1:46:47 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: Kolokotronis

See post #90


102 posted on 11/24/2004 2:03:59 PM PST by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
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To: Kolokotronis; Stubborn; Pio; bornacatholic; MarMema; pachomi33; FormerLib
Spot on, Kolo. Because of his teachings, +Cyprian was refused to be seen by the Pope, was refused accommodations in Rome and was labeled heretic by the Holy See.

That being said, +Cyprian did advocate a strong Papacy, but he also advocated that the laity appoint and depose bishops, and that all bishops have the same authority.

122 posted on 11/24/2004 5:43:03 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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