With the claims of the Catholic Church you are talking about resting your soul for all of eternity on what you have been told. -- It would seem that there should be some serious investigative work done to on a fist hand basis see if these things be so.
You mentioned a sucession.
There is only one historian for the first three centuries of church history can you name that man?
If their theory is true, then the sucession of Peter would have to be the single most important issue in Church history. The establishment of that pedigree line to the first Pope would be listed in an official history just as the geneology of Christ is listed in two Gospels.
If that pedigree is not listed in the only offical history church history -- a history I might add that was paid for by the Roman Catholic Church -- then either it could not be found to be documented becasue no such pedigree existed -- or if it could not be found due to lost documents at least a histoical note would have been made of their existance and subsequent loss in that treatise. In reality the entire legacy of Rome and the Pope lies in that one book.
If you are serious about your catholisism you will find the book and read the first four sections to find your answer. Its completely your own choice: Men's words or documentation.
In the meantime I want to draw your attention to Clement of Rome one of the all important links in that chain of sucession -- you have been told the Pope is infallible this is a core doctrine it is not optional he either is or isn't and if he is not like with liberals and Kerry the house of cards goes tumbling down and we can not trust other biiger and more far reaching claims they make.
Clement of Rome is claimed to be in that line of sucession yet in his first letter to the Corinthians written in 95 -96 ad letter Clement makes no mention of his office nor his authority. His greeting to the corinthians is as a co-equal -- that in itself should send you strong warning signals
THE Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojourning at Corinth, to them that are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied.
Secondly Clement confesses to a church that has been in Crisis its elders were tossed out by younger members that he has been tardy in responding
Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves (At the church of rome), we feel that we have been somewhat tardy in turning our attention to the points respecting which you consulted us;
In this letter Clement clearly misquotes verses
. For it is written, "The kind-hearted shall inhabit the land, and the guiltless shall be left upon it, but transgressors shall be destroyed from off the face of it."
) And again it saith, "They loved Him with their mouth, and lied to Him with their tongue; but their heart was not right with Him, neither were they faithful in His covenant
He quotes from sources the Catholic Church has never recognized as scripture example: (4) adding, moreover, this gracious declaration Repent O house of Israel, of your iniquity.(5) Say to the children of My people, (Clement quoted this from the Apocrypha of Ezekiel) Though your sins reach from earth to heaven, I and though they be redder(6) than scarlet, and blacker than sackcloth, yet if ye turn to Me with your whole heart, and say, Father ! I will listen to you, as to a holy(7) people.
This is a quote from another book that the roman catholic church never recognized its from the book of enoch -- The sun and moon, with the companies of the stars, roll on in harmony according to His command, within their prescribed limits, and without any deviation. The fruitful earth, according to His will, brings forth food in abundance, at the proper seasons, for man and beast and all the living beings upon it, never hesitating, nor changing any of the ordinances which He has fixed. (Book of Enoch)The unsearchable places of abysses, and the indescribable arrangements of the lower world, are restrained by the same laws. The vast unmeasurable sea, gathered together by His working into various basins,(13) never passes beyond the bounds placed around it, but does as He has commanded.
This verse no scholar knows the book chapter or verse he is quoting here.-- And again it saith, "They loved Him with their mouth, and lied to Him with their tongue; but their heart was not right with Him, neither were they faithful in His covenant
now try this: Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.
Are thse the words of the holy see? Jumbled up incorrect and patently false on the Pheonix? If John Kerry had told this story of the Pheonix on the campaign trail what would you have posted on FR.
Are you willing to risk all of eternity on traditions and words of men.
The Democrats said that the acres of documents on Bill Clinton were all false they blew off every witness -- if you open up the Catholic online encyclopedia and read about the inquistion the french hugeonoughts the anabaptists and even dozens of Roman Catholic Saints that they freely admit to killing themselves only to make them saints once they were dead and posed no more oposition to them.
I work with a roman catholic who is of the order of templars -- I don't recall the exact name of the order the man went to catholic school and a catholic collage and he can recite the slaughters of protestants and apostates his very order was attacked and murdered in france for financial gain. And the pope recently apologised to the eastern orthodix church for the sins the commited when the catholic church under orders from the pope looted the greek orthodox church in constantinopel and left it to be destroyed my the muslim onslaught. The document trail is all there for you reading.
May God bless you and enlighten your heart.
“If their theory is true, then the sucession of Peter would have to be the single most important issue in Church history.”
No, actually the Passion and Resurrection are the most important issues.
“The establishment of that pedigree line to the first Pope would be listed in an official history just as the geneology of Christ is listed in two Gospels.”
You mean like this one?
1. St. Peter (32-67)
2. St. Linus (67-76)
3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4. St. Clement I (88-97)
5. St. Evaristus (97-105)
6. St. Alexander I (105-115)
7. St. Sixtus I (115-125) -- also called Xystus I
8. St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9. St. Hyginus (136-140)
10. St. Pius I (140-155)
11. St. Anicetus (155-166)
12. St. Soter (166-175)
13. St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14. St. Victor I (189-199)
15. St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
16. St. Callistus I (217-22)
17. St. Urban I (222-30)
18. St. Pontain (230-35)
19. St. Anterus (235-36)
20. St. Fabian (236-50)
21. St. Cornelius (251-53)
22. St. Lucius I (253-54)
23. St. Stephen I (254-257)
24. St. Sixtus II (257-258)
25. St. Dionysius (260-268)
26. St. Felix I (269-274)
27. St. Eutychian (275-283)
28. St. Caius (283-296) -- also called Gaius
29. St. Marcellinus (296-304)
30. St. Marcellus I (308-309)
31. St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
32. St. Miltiades (311-14)
33. St. Sylvester I (314-35)
34. St. Marcus (336)
35. St. Julius I (337-52)
36. Liberius (352-66)
37. St. Damasus I (366-83)
38. St. Siricius (384-99)
39. St. Anastasius I (399-401)
40. St. Innocent I (401-17)
41. St. Zosimus (417-18)
42. St. Boniface I (418-22)
43. St. Celestine I (422-32)
44. St. Sixtus III (432-40)
45. St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
46. St. Hilarius (461-68)
47. St. Simplicius (468-83)
48. St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
49. St. Gelasius I (492-96)
50. Anastasius II (496-98)
51. St. Symmachus (498-514)
52. St. Hormisdas (514-23)
53. St. John I (523-26)
54. St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
55. Boniface II (530-32)
56. John II (533-35)
57. St. Agapetus I (535-36) -- also called Agapitus I
58. St. Silverius (536-37)
59. Vigilius (537-55)
60. Pelagius I (556-61)
61. John III (561-74)
62. Benedict I (575-79)
63. Pelagius II (579-90)
64. St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
65. Sabinian (604-606)
66. Boniface III (607)
67. St. Boniface IV (608-15)
68. St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
69. Boniface V (619-25)
70. Honorius I (625-38)
71. Severinus (640)
72. John IV (640-42)
73. Theodore I (642-49)
74. St. Martin I (649-55)
75. St. Eugene I (655-57)
76. St. Vitalian (657-72)
77. Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
78. Donus (676-78)
79. St. Agatho (678-81)
80. St. Leo II (682-83)
81. St. Benedict II (684-85)
82. John V (685-86)
83. Conon (686-87)
84. St. Sergius I (687-701)
85. John VI (701-05)
86. John VII (705-07)
87. Sisinnius (708)
88. Constantine (708-15)
89. St. Gregory II (715-31)
90. St. Gregory III (731-41)
91. St. Zachary (741-52)
92. Stephen II (752)
93. Stephen III (752-57)
94. St. Paul I (757-67)
95. Stephen IV (767-72)
96. Adrian I (772-95)
97. St. Leo III (795-816)
98. Stephen V (816-17)
99. St. Paschal I (817-24)
100. Eugene II (824-27)
101. Valentine (827)
102. Gregory IV (827-44)
103. Sergius II (844-47)
104. St. Leo IV (847-55)
105. Benedict III (855-58)
106. St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
107. Adrian II (867-72)
108. John VIII (872-82)
109. Marinus I (882-84)
110. St. Adrian III (884-85)
111. Stephen VI (885-91)
112. Formosus (891-96)
113. Boniface VI (896)
114. Stephen VII (896-97)
115. Romanus (897)
116. Theodore II (897)
117. John IX (898-900)
118. Benedict IV (900-03)
119. Leo V (903)
120. Sergius III (904-11)
121. Anastasius III (911-13)
122. Lando (913-14)
123. John X (914-28)
124. Leo VI (928)
125. Stephen VIII (929-31)
126. John XI (931-35)
127. Leo VII (936-39)
128. Stephen IX (939-42)
129. Marinus II (942-46)
130. Agapetus II (946-55)
131. John XII (955-63)
132. Leo VIII (963-64)
133. Benedict V (964)
134. John XIII (965-72)
135. Benedict VI (973-74)
136. Benedict VII (974-83)
137. John XIV (983-84)
138. John XV (985-96)
139. Gregory V (996-99)
140. Sylvester II (999-1003)
141. John XVII (1003)
142. John XVIII (1003-09)
143. Sergius IV (1009-12)
144. Benedict VIII (1012-24)
145. John XIX (1024-32)
146. Benedict IX (1032-45)
147. Sylvester III (1045)
148. Benedict IX (1045)
149. Gregory VI (1045-46)
150. Clement II (1046-47)
151. Benedict IX (1047-48)
152. Damasus II (1048)
153. St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154. Victor II (1055-57)
155. Stephen X (1057-58)
156. Nicholas II (1058-61)
157. Alexander II (1061-73)
158. St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
159. Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
160. Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
161. Paschal II (1099-1118)
162. Gelasius II (1118-19)
163. Callistus II (1119-24)
164. Honorius II (1124-30)
165. Innocent II (1130-43)
166. Celestine II (1143-44)
167. Lucius II (1144-45)
168. Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169. Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170. Adrian IV (1154-59)
171. Alexander III (1159-81)
172. Lucius III (1181-85)
173. Urban III (1185-87)
174. Gregory VIII (1187)
175. Clement III (1187-91)
176. Celestine III (1191-98)
177. Innocent III (1198-1216)
178. Honorius III (1216-27)
179. Gregory IX (1227-41)
180. Celestine IV (1241)
181. Innocent IV (1243-54)
182. Alexander IV (1254-61)
183. Urban IV (1261-64)
184. Clement IV (1265-68)
185. Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
186. Blessed Innocent V (1276)
187. Adrian V (1276)
188. John XXI (1276-77)
189. Nicholas III (1277-80)
190. Martin IV (1281-85)
191. Honorius IV (1285-87)
192. Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193. St. Celestine V (1294)
194. Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195. Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
196. Clement V (1305-14)
197. John XXII (1316-34)
198. Benedict XII (1334-42)
199. Clement VI (1342-52)
200. Innocent VI (1352-62)
201. Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202. Gregory XI (1370-78)
203. Urban VI (1378-89)
204. Boniface IX (1389-1404)
205. Innocent VII (1404-06)
206. Gregory XII (1406-15)
207. Martin V (1417-31)
208. Eugene IV (1431-47)
209. Nicholas V (1447-55)
210. Callistus III (1455-58)
211. Pius II (1458-64)
212. Paul II (1464-71)
213. Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214. Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215. Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216. Pius III (1503)
217. Julius II (1503-13)
218. Leo X (1513-21)
219. Adrian VI (1522-23)
220. Clement VII (1523-34)
221. Paul III (1534-49)
222. Julius III (1550-55)
223. Marcellus II (1555)
224. Paul IV (1555-59)
225. Pius IV (1559-65)
226. St. Pius V (1566-72)
227. Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228. Sixtus V (1585-90)
229. Urban VII (1590)
230. Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231. Innocent IX (1591)
232. Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233. Leo XI (1605)
234. Paul V (1605-21)
235. Gregory XV (1621-23)
236. Urban VIII (1623-44)
237. Innocent X (1644-55)
238. Alexander VII (1655-67)
239. Clement IX (1667-69)
240. Clement X (1670-76)
241. Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242. Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243. Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244. Clement XI (1700-21)
245. Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246. Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247. Clement XII (1730-40)
248. Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249. Clement XIII (1758-69)
250. Clement XIV (1769-74)
251. Pius VI (1775-99)
252. Pius VII (1800-23)
253. Leo XII (1823-29)
254. Pius VIII (1829-30)
255. Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256. Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257. Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258. St. Pius X (1903-14)
259. Benedict XV (1914-22)
260. Pius XI (1922-39)
261. Pius XII (1939-58)
262. Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
263. Paul VI (1963-78)
264. John Paul I (1978)
265. John Paul II (1978—)
I don’t know exactly how to prove it to you, but you’ve been told a lot of things about the Catholic Church that simply are not true.
“you have been told the Pope is infallible”
That’s another misconception. The Pope is only infallible in very limited circumstances, and then only when pronouncing on closely circumscribed matters of faith and morals. The Catholic Church does not and never has taught that every statement of the Pope is infallible.
“His greeting to the Corinthians is as a co-equal -- that in itself should send you strong warning signals”
Not at all. The very Latin title of the Pope – Pontifex Maximus – means “bridge builder.” He is not some oriental potentate, but is selected by a college of cardinals from among their number.
“Secondly Clement confesses to a church that has been in Crisis”
So what? The Church has weathered many crises. So many that its very survival is miraculous.
“In this letter Clement clearly misquotes verses”
Or works from another translation, or is translated incorrectly, or is paraphrasing. So what?
“He quotes from sources the Catholic Church has never recognized as scripture”
So? A Pope can’t be educated beyond the Catholic canon?
“Are thse the words of the holy see? Jumbled up incorrect and patently false on the Pheonix?”
Oh, come on. Why don’t you slam him for not knowing quantum physics while you’re at it. He was a man of his time. It’s neither useful or fair to slam him for that.
“you open up the Catholic online encyclopedia and read about the inquistion the french hugeonoughts the anabaptists and even dozens of Roman Catholic Saints that they freely admit to killing themselves only to make them saints once they were dead and posed no more oposition to them.”
In previous eras, religious wars were prosecuted on all sides. Go to Ireland and see what they have to say about Oliver Cromwell and William of Orange, and about the “famine walls” erected as late as the 19th century. For every bad thing you can bring up about the Catholic Church, there is a corresponding atrocity against them. And none of that means as much as you seem to think it does.
“went to catholic school and a catholic collage and he can recite the slaughters of protestants and apostates”
Uh, huh. And can he cite the slaughters of Catholics, or does he only care to remember things that make the Church look bad? By the way, how many people do you think were executed by the Inquisition?
“And the pope recently apologised to the eastern orthodix church for the sins the commited when the catholic church under orders from the pope looted the greek orthodox church in constantinopel”
Oh, my goodness. History according to Jack Chick. Constantinople was not sacked by “the Catholic Church,” nor under the orders of the Pope, nor was it a random act without context. Try a brief summary here:
http://www.fact-index.com/f/fo/fourth_crusade.html
“The document trail is all there for you reading.”
The trick is not reading. The trick is to learn to spot distortion and fabrication.
“May God bless you and enlighten your heart.”
Back atcha.
So to make it clear according to their own words and doctrines as to whether Clement of Romes words as one of the men in sucession to St. Peters throne read the following and decide for yourself.
Only in the year 1870, at the First Vatican Council, did Pope Pius IX succeed in turning this teaching into a dogma, in spite of the protest of many Catholics, who even preferred to leave this church and found their own community (of the Old Catholics) than to accept so absurd a dogma. By virtue of the definition of the Vatican Council, the pope is infallible when he, as the pastor and teacher of all Christians, defines or proclaims the truths of the faith "ex cathedra," that is, officially, as the head of the Church.
so in 1870 under pope pius IX this doctrine was pushed through and as Pastor and teacher as this man expresses the truth of the faith he is infallible -- and clement of rome was certainly expressing the truths of the faith as he saw them which are pretty ragged at best. Now if I were to stake my life on this man his infalibility would have to be better than a person who clearly does not even have command of the scripture he is quoting or preaching fables of pheonixs as being the truth.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
There is a written record for all who care to study it. There are writings and historical documents for all to inspect from the first three centuries and when we read them we get a picture of a people that generation by generation were losing their way. And that by the time of the cannon of scriptures the declaring of a pope and a central chuerch in rome -- we have a confession from catholic saint after catholic saint that they had lost the office of Apostle they had lost the office of prophet they had lost the gifts of the spirit and miracles that had once been common place were hardly known -- and a professional preisthood rich in traditions and teachings of men sought to fill that gap that the holy spirit had once heald in the church. In fundamentalist terms the church had backslidden they were lost and they could no longer find their way back to what Christ and the Apostles had taught.
If so then this man made pope would have restored the office of prophet and apostles and restored all the gifts and miracles -- people would have been healed by his shadow as peter, shreds of his cloaks would have healed like paul in the book of Acts. The authority of the pope is like the american dollar, it has no value to it other than what people are willing to ascribe to it.