PROPHETIC SIGNS THAT WE ARE IN THE END TIMES [A good summary of SOME key evidences--QX]

CONTENDER MINISTRIES ^ | 11 JUL 2004 | JENNIFER RAST

[Safrguns]

Where do you find support in the bible for a mid-tribulation rapture?

[Quix]

I fail to see . . . even given God's faithfulness to His Word . . . [HINT, HE KNOWS BETTER WHAT HE MEANT than we do in HIS Word];

I fail to see . . . . how, IF GOD OFFERS A CHOICE BETWEEN what He promised in His Word and something better, that such is contrary to His Word--especially if it's within the parameters of What HE meant in His Word vs how we humanly construed it.

Used to have a real concern about Holy Spirit being 'taken out;' during the last 3.5 years of The Great Tribulation. He that restrains etc. . . .

And that's likely a plausible interpretation . . .

But, AS David said, GOD IS ALWAYS EVERWHERE. By Him every atom and subatomic particle is sustained in it's proper functioning. And, Holy Spirit could be taken out generally but left somewhat akin to Old Testament functioning--operating in and through selected individuals.

After all, evidently there will be Believers living through the whole of Tribulation to repopulate the earth. I can't imagine God leaving them defenseless or 100% devoid of Holy Spirit.

[concretebob]

"The scripture in Revelation speaks of the savior returning on a white horse followed by armies on white horses."

Thanks, but afte reading this, from the website, I lost all interest.

Revelations does not say that.

Revelations 6.8

"I looked and behold a pale horse, and his name that sat upon him was Death, and Hell followed with him.

And power was given unto them over a fourth part of the Earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger,and with the beasts of the Earth."

[concretebob]

Here's another cunumdrum. We pretty much know Eve was led astray by a Fallen Angel. Cain was the product.

That means that these rebel angels were screwing with things long before God decided to punish them.

Testament, IMHO to His patience and perseverence.

BUT, huge, monstrous, BUT, what else was going on while the line of Adam (and David) was developing?

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to the time frame between Adam and Noah, in years? We know Enoch was 365 years old when God took him.

Well, we don't KNOW that, it's what is stated.

[concretebob]

In FWIW department

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

The Bible gives a specific time frame as to when the rebel angels will be stranded on Earth. Daniel's70th Week, the seven year countdown to Christ's return which has commonly been called the "Tribulation", is divided into two haves of 1260 days each.The casting down of satan, the dragon, occurs at a time in which 1260 days REMAIN.
This would put the War in Heaven and satan's defeat at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week, at the midpoint of the seven year countdown to Christ's return.

Rev.12:13

And when the dragon saw that he was cast out onto the earth, he pursued the woman (Israel) who bore the male child (Jesus Christ) and those redeemed by him... and the woman was given two wings like a great eagle that she might fly to a place prepared for her where she is nourished for 1,260days (3 and 1/2 years).

Satan knows that at the midpoint of the tribulation he and his "armies of the high place" will be cast down to earth, with no longer a "place still found for them in heaven."
Satan and the rebel angels will be gathered, "a gathering of prisonersin a dungeon", and the earth will be their prison. God's judgment, His wrath, will then be poured out on the earth.
Judgment is God's reason for visiting the inhabitants of the earth [the rebel angels cast out of heavenand of course the minions of antichrist].
The point where the "dwellers on high" or "the high places" are thrown to earth does not take place atthe beginning of the seven years of the last week of history, but in themidst of that seven years.
This middle point of the tribulation is when the battle in heaven between Michael and his angels, and Satan and his angels is decided.
Satan is thrown to the earth and held there to be judged in Rev. 12:7. At this point John hears a loud voice of a multitude in heaven:

Rev.12:10 NOW has come the salvation, and the power and the kingdom of our God... for the accuser of our brethren has been cast down, he who accused them beforeour God day and night.... Because of this be glad, the heavens, and you tabernacling [temporarily dwelling in them, as those raptured at the midpoint of the tribulation will come back to earth with Christ at Armageddon] in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea because the devil has gone down toyou in great wrath, knowing that he has but a short time.

This passage describes the devil as enraged, having lost his battle with Michael and the good angels and permenently been thrown out of heaven to the earth. Why would there be a battle in the heavens at this point, 1260 days into the seemingly successful reign of antichrist? The battle is the last ditch effort ofsatan to prevent mortals, men made of dirt, from being resurrected to takethe place vacated by the glorious rebel angels themselves.

Notice that both Isaiah 26 and Revelation 12 link the resurrection and the casting down of Satan simultaneously,just after 1260 days into antichrist's rule.
This fact disallows the inaccurate belief that Satan and his angels have already been cast down to earth (a Mormon contention), and theories that the rapture takes place at the beginningof the seven years or some point significantly later than the midpoint of seven years.

Isaiah 26:19-21 explains that the tribulation judgment of the earth commences at the point immediately after the resurrection of the saints.

Your dead ones shall live, my dead body; they shall rise up. Awake and sing, dust dwellers; for the dew of light is your dew; and the earth shall cast out the rapha (to be judged).

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind response . . . re the FREEPMAIL . . .

I'd love to see you post from Enoch about that and offer whatever speculations you have related to that as a sign of AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH in our era.

If you're comfortable enough doing that.

[Quix]

I consider Calvary satan's legal defeat.

The Resurrection proof of it.

Later events to be the dramatic illustration and manifesting in multidimensions of the final results of the victory won at Calvary.

[Safrguns]

We pretty much know Eve was led astray by a Fallen Angel. Cain was the product. Thats a new one on me... where did you get this one? "The scripture in Revelation speaks of the savior returning on a white horse followed by armies on white horses." Thanks, but afte reading this, from the website, I lost all interest. Revelations does not say that. It does... your in the wrong chapter. Try 19:14

[concretebob]

Enoch...the Bible sanitized the incident. Cain was Abel's half-brother.

I thought everyone knew that.

And the third was named Gadreel: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed [the weapons of death to the sons of men] the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons 7 of death to the children of men. And from his hand they have proceeded against those who dwell 8 on the earth from that day and for evermore

[concretebob]

I stand corrected. Thank you.

[concretebob]

So whaddaya think? Me and AG totally round the bend right?
On the edge, ready for the rubber rumpus room?
Anyone who believes that, is crazy, right?

[concretebob]

Q, I've posted whole chapters from Enoch on this board.
I'll post anything you care to read.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank y’all so much for the pings and further explanations! Now I’m ready to get back to concretebob's question:

What was happening during the time of Noah, that only ocurred during the time of Noah that is happening now?

In the Scriptures, Christ describes the time of Noah which will be the same when He returns:

But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. – Matthew 24:36-42

The entire passage is framed with the point that noone except the Father knows when Christ will come. And the passages explain that His coming will be unexpected as it was in the days of Noah - they weren’t expecting the flood, i.e. utter annihilation.

The circumstances that led to the judgment of the flood can never be repeated. The Watchers were angels appointed to look after man but who instead slept with mortal women and produced giants who had a horrific blood lust. They also taught men and women forbidden arts dealing with warfare, etc. In the Noah judgment, the Watchers were imprisoned for the coming final judgment. The “giants” were stripped of their physical bodies and became the demons (evil or unclean spirits).

The Scriptures – the canon – only alludes to the story which is more fully described in the book of Enoch. Here is what the Scriptures say:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. – Genesis 6:1-4

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. – Jude 1:6

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; - 2 Peter 2:4-5

If we consider the full account in Enoch (as Jude and Peter allude to above) - then we see that it would take angels breeding with women and giving birth to giants to repeat the pre-Flood offense. But the angels who did this are imprisoned for the final judgment for their conduct, so what other angels would dare do it again? And if they did, where are their offspring, the flesh eating giants?

[Safrguns]

Reference please... I havn't read that.

[concretebob]

1 And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being
2 shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. And they said one to another: 'The earth made without inhabitant cries the voice of their cryingst up to the gates of heaven.
3 And now to you, the holy ones of heaven, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause
4 before the Most High."' And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, and God of the ages, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the
5 ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all
6 things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which
7 men were striving to learn: And Semjaza, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the
9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. And the women have
10 borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are
11 wrought on the earth. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'

[concretebob]

Sorry, I got nothing but discussions with friends and suppositions.
I know what Genesis says, I also know it is incomplete.
I have always thought that the story of Eve being tempted, and succumbing to temptation, was an analogy for a sexual liason with one of the rebel angels.
Just an opinion, and I will preface future statements as such.

[concretebob]

But the angels who did this are imprisoned for the final judgment for their conduct, so what other angels would dare do it again?
but suppose He didn't get them all the first time, or last time?
Enoch only says God took Azazel and Samjaza and a few other of the leaders.
Some were still around in Christ's time, says so in the New Testament, and it's for sure Satan was on the ground, in the wilderness, because he tried to tempt Christ.
See, this is where it gets confusing.
Christ cast out some demons, "We are legion", threw them into some pigs and ran them off a cliff.
Where did they come from?
BTW a legion is roughly 4,000, by Roaman standards.
and why did they beg Christ not to cast them into the darkness?

[concretebob]

This is probably the most descriptive section, except for Chapters 68 & 69

1 Enoch Chapter 10

1 Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech,
2 and said to him: 'Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come
3 upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape
4 and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.'And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening
5 in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may
6,7 not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the
8 Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted
9 through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.' And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in
10 battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and
11 that each one of them will live five hundred years.'And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves
12 with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is
13 for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and
14 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all
15 generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because
16 they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth' shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.
17 And then shall all the righteous escape, And shall live till they beget thousands of children, And all the days of their youth and their old age Shall they complete in peace.
18 And then shall the whole earth be tilled in righteousness, and shall all be planted with trees and
19 be full of blessing. And all desirable trees shall be planted on it, and they shall plant vines on it: and the vine which they plant thereon shall yield wine in abundance, and as for all the seed which is sown thereon each measure (of it) shall bear a thousand, and each measure of olives shall yield
20 ten presses of oil. And cleanse thou the earth from all oppression, and from all unrighteousness, and from all sin, and from all godlessness: and all the uncleanness that is wrought upon the earth
21 destroy from off the earth. And all the children of men shall become righteous, and all nations
22 shall offer adoration and shall praise Me, and all shall worship Me. And the earth shall be cleansed from all defilement, and from all sin, and from all punishment, and from all torment, and I will never again send (them) upon it from generation to generation and for ever.

The son of Lamech is naturally Noah. It is thought that the major source of the first part of the Watchers narrative (chs 6 -- 11) was a now lost book of Noah. In fact, Enoch doesn't make his abrupt entrance into the Watchers narrative until ch 12.This chapter keeps the various strands of the narrative

[Safrguns]

Demons and fallen angels... two completely different animals.
Legion requested not to be cast into the pit which is the very depths of hell where pain and suffering are maximized.

[concretebob]

Alright, supposing God missed a few. Genesis says they were "ancient men of renown, of whom legends are told."
They are powerful in their own right.
But "legends", "ancient men" inplies they were old during Noah's time.
Sumerian legends tell stories of great battles between forces of good and evil.
Sounds like the same events, in different ages, happening over and over.
Just my opinion.

Of course, there are also translations that pre-date Sumerian texts, that describe aircraft.