Replies

Sadly, the Calvinist's seem to have inherited the false Catholic doctrine of original sin.

I dearly love the Eastern Orthodox -- And how could I not?

My beloved Youth Pastor, who blessedly introduced me to the Reformation Doctrines of Grace and Calvinism, has now forsaken Protestantism for Antiochan Orthodoxy after a bitter rumor-mongering scandal which demeaned his good name (Let it suffice to say that I knew him as intimately as anyone, and he was certainly NOT homosexual in any way. However -- American Fundamentalist Protestants, having no tradition of Monasticism, can be unfairly suspicious of a perfectly-devout heterosexual Single Man who happens to enjoy more interest in Art and Prayer and Gardening than he has in Sex; but Eastern Orthodoxy offers him an organic and meditative Monastic Tradition, so perhaps he is in the right place).
And my beloved elder brother in France, after sampling French Catholicism, has decided that his children shall be raised French Orthodox (they have a Circuit Priest who is in town to offer Orthodox Eucharist once a month, and that is enough). My nephew has already been baptized French Orthodox, and they have another on the way -- (argh!) I would prefer them to be Calvinists, but better Orthodox than Papist!! God bless them, every one.

That said, you are correct -- as regards the Mechanics of Salvation Theology (i.e., "Soteriology"), we Calvinists are more Augustinian than even Augustine himself. This is a difference between our Tradition and Eastern Orthodoxy. I do not deny these differences, nor do I apologize for them.

If the Bible teaches the Doctrine of Original Sin, then as a Calvinist, I MUST BELIEVE IT.

Tell me of your Icons, your Incense, your incredibly-beautiful Liturgy, your Monasticism, commitment to Holiness and Humility, and even the Fact that Theologians categorize Eastern Orthodoxy as "The Church of Love" (just as they regard Romanism as "The Church of Law", and Protestantism as "The Church of Faith").

Tell me of every aspect of your beautiful Orthodox faith, Destro... and you will have both my Envy and my Appreciation. The Incense of Orthodoxy is sweet, and even its Antidoron is delightful and welcome to a Calvinist like me.

But if the Bible teaches the Doctrine of Original Sin, then as a Calvinist, I MUST BELIEVE IT.

To the Orthodox Christian original sin only applies to Adam and Eve. Since they were thrown out of paradise their offspring live with that consequence but they do not inherit that sin.

But THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES, Destro!!

The Fact is, the Bible teaches that Adam was both the Federal-Representative and Organic-Patriarchal Head and Representative of the Entire Race of Man. When Adam Fell, he spiritually-murdered the entire Race of Man.

The Biblical Laws of Human Depravity:

LAW 1.) The Spiritually Dead are born wicked. (Genesis 8:21; Psalms 58:3)
LAW 2.) All humanely-benevolent works of the Spiritually Dead are considered by God to be unclean filthiness. (Isaiah 64:6)
LAW 3.) As long as he is Spiritually Dead, the Unregenerate Man never freely wills the action of Righteous Good. (Jeremiah 13:23)
LAW 4.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are only and always set upon the doing of evil. (Ecclesiastes 8:11)
LAW 5.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are spiritually insane. (Ecclesiastes 9:3)
LAW 6.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always despise the Light of Grace. (John 3:19)
LAW 7.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always reject the ministrations of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 7:51)
LAW 8.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER Seek God. (Romans 3:10-11)
LAW 9.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER will any action whatsoever of Righteous Good. (Romans 3:12)
LAW 10.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, it is defined as BIBLICALLY-IMPOSSIBLE that the Unregenerate Man should ever will any Righteous Good. (Romans 7:18)
LAW 11.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER perform any God-pleasing Action of Will whatsoever. (Romans 8:5-8)
Law 12.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are utterly incapable of knowing, understanding, or believing any Spiritual Truth. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Once the nature of Spiritual Death is correctly understood according to the teachings of Scripture, it becomes clearly evident that it is Biblically-impermissible to teach that Unregenerate men "respond to" and "choose God" prior to God's own monergistic Regeneration of their dead spirits.

And God regenerates whomsoever He will, according to His own Election.

DESTRO -- You would not dare to complain against a Son who inherits the wealth of his Father, would you? Would you Bitch and Moan if you inherited $100 Million Dollars which was Gained for you by your Father? Then how can you Complain that the Race of Man has inherited the Spiritual Death of Our Father, Adam?

I bet you wouldn't be complaining much if Adam had chosen Life and Obedience, and thus secured for you Total Everlasting Happiness before you were ever born -- would you?

The Fact is, God offered Adam Eternal Life and Everlasting Happiness for him and all his descendants FOREVER, and Adam chose Rebellion instead of Obedience.

And thus -- by both Federal-Representation and Organic-Generation -- Adam earned for himself and all his descendants Eternal Death, rather than Eternal Life.

It's totally Fair. By the Law of Inheritance, God can offer to Adam either Eternal Life or Eternal Death, and it's Adam's Choice as to which Inheritance he will pass down to his Descendants.

Adam chose to pass down Eternal Death to his descendants. Don't blame God; blame Adam.

Only a psychopathic God would punish a child for the sin of the parent.

You might as well say, "Only a psychopathic God would grant a child Everlasting Life for the Obedience of his Parent".

But God was prepared to grant the Entire Race of Man Eternal Life and Everlasting Happiness for Adam and all his descendants FOREVER; and by both Federal-Representation and Organic-Generation, Adam chose SPIRITUAL DEATH for himself and all his descendants.

Them's are the Biblical Facts. Don't blame God; blame Adam.

Best, OP

OP:

"...we Calvinists are more Augustinian than even Augustine himself. This is a difference between our Tradition and Eastern Orthodoxy. I do not deny these differences, nor do I apologize for them."

Good for you! :) As you know, because you have participated in discussions on other threads which in passing have mentioned the doctrine of Original Sin, there are probably four or five different interpretations of the Sin of Adam ranging from Pelangianism at one end to Calvinism at the other. Your posted article gives us an opportunity to discuss these various positions and thus arrive at a better understanding of the varying theologies existing within Christianity. This issue is fundamental to understanding the several Christian positions on sotierology, theosis and its Western variant salvation, the Incarnation and Mariology.

"Tell me of every aspect of your beautiful Orthodox faith, Destro... and you will have both my Envy and my Appreciation. The Incense of Orthodoxy is sweet, and even its Antidoron is delightful and welcome to a Calvinist like me."

Hopefully the discussion which your post will encourage will provide an exposition of Orthodox theology, from which stems our liturgical life.

More later. Off to Church!

"And thus -- by both Federal-Representation and Organic-Generation -- Adam earned for himself and all his descendants Eternal Death, rather than Eternal Life.

It's totally Fair. By the Law of Inheritance, God can offer to Adam either Eternal Life or Eternal Death, and it's Adam's Choice as to which Inheritance he will pass down to his Descendants."

There is a danger in using terms like "Organic-Generation" that the idea of original sin is like some kind of virus or contagion that passes from parents to children! This would be a very simplistic view of the Biblical data and while common among some of the Fathers, is probably not helpful.

IMHO the covenant-family paradigm provides a much more Biblical view of "original sin":

1) Adam and Eve were created with original justice or "graced" or in a covenant relationship with God.

2) By the sin of Adam they broke their covenant with God and became dis-graced. They were now outside the covenant and to be outside God's covenant-family is to be spiritually dead.

3) To use your term "Federal-Representation", Adam as head of the human family or federal representative had now put all his family, and all future offspring of that family, out of God's covenant as well. (This being so because covenants are primarily family affairs rather than individual ones.)

4) Consequently every human being who is born into Adam's family is born outside the covenant (iow with original sin and lacking sanctifying grace) and can only be brought into covenant with God by being reborn into God's family by grace. In being reborn into the covenant-family established by Christ - the new Adam - one must also be cut off from the old Adam's family.

So while I agree that original sin is "acquired" by organic generation, I would see it more as the result of what we are organically generated into (i.e. the wrong family because it has no covenant with God) rather than a generationally-contracted contagion.

While we revere Augustine as a great Saint and doctor of the Church, we do not consider him to have been infallible, nor that he necessarily used the best words or concepts to express his thoughts.

But God was prepared to grant the Entire Race of Man Eternal Life and Everlasting Happiness for Adam and all his descendants FOREVER

Was? Or is? You are also forgetting that the "entire human race" consisted of two people, a male and a female and no chance of procreating.

OP, I am sure you don't think that God was somehow "caught" off-guard with Adam's and Eve's disobedience.

when

Not if but when. So, then the Bible teaches that God knew Adam and Eve will eat the forbidden fruit. Nothing happens if He doesn't will it, so it was His decision that the Man shall fall: there was no disobedience that was not destined in God's design. So if that is so, was Man's fall an act of sin or an act of God? I would say that the former could not happen without the latter! What was the first (conscious) act of sin was Eve convincing Adam to eat (after she had already eaten of the furit herself) and the second sin committed was Adam blaming it on God, Who gave him Eve (Gen 3:12)

So, why did He do it? Because He can? Because He would have to be, as Destro says, a "psychotic God" to punish innocent children? Hardly.

The question is: were Adam and Eve mentally children of responsible adults?

First, God made them and what God makes is Good; they were blessed and sinless. They were naked but they were not ashamed of their nakedness, like little children would not be. And, before they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they did not know the right from wrong, like little children don't. It is therefore not unreasonable to say that they were mentally like little children, incapable of shame and ignorant of what's good and what evil, naive.

wast

So, why would God, then, by design punish -- indeed kill -- such innocence? Is it because He is "psychotic" so much so that He would kill His own innocent children and then demand "revenge" for His wounded "pride" by assuming a human form, suffering and dying on the cross?

Let me propose to you a different view and then you be the judge. God did set up Adam and Eve to fail and die, so we could come back to Him by choice (and I am being careful here not to qualify how we arrive at that choice). For, Adam and Eve were not with God because they loved Him, not because they chose Him. What kind of love was that when there was no choice?

We release our children at one point in their lives, no matter how much we hate to do it. Without them getting the taste of the real life, without getting hurt, without missing the comforts of home, etc. they will never grow up and come of age, and love their parents maturely and eventually becoming like their parents! Instead you will have a 50 year-old son or daughter living with you...because he or she has to [no choice]! How selfish does one have to be to create that?

The only way we will ever love God truly is by a process of spiritual coming of age which we call theosis. It is a life-altering process that gradually becomes defined in terms of God with everything that we see, feel and know.

So, in an incredible act of engineering, God created us -- spiritual children -- to fail, but he also made sure He was near-by to rescue us and brings us back to Him as spiritual adults.

Salvation makes sense only if we understand that God had to let us fall and die in order that we can spiritually grow up. A "wounded" God does not rescue that which He killed, by killing Himself! He came to us to show us the Light, Life and the Way, a gudance of hope and life ever-lasting in true love. There is no guilt and no punishment, OP, just the consequence of God's Divine Plan.

Remark: on quoting the OT, keep in mind Heb 8:8 and 8:13.