To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
But, nevermind -- that's not really the main issue. It is enough to say that Psalm 58:3 does teach that Infants are Sinners. Until I see a talking newborn, I'll have to agree to disagree about Psalms 58:3. I can't see a process where sometime between conception and birth, a baby who does not know to choose right or wrong is led away of his own lusts (James 1:14-15) transgresses the law (I John 3:4) and thus separates himself from God. (Isaiah 59:1-2)
To: Colonel Kangaroo
Until I see a talking newborn, I'll have to agree to disagree about Psalms 58:3. I can't see a process where sometime between conception and birth, a baby who does not know to choose right or wrong is led away of his own lusts (James 1:14-15) transgresses the law (I John 3:4) and thus separates himself from God. (Isaiah 59:1-2)Psalm 58:3 teaches that Infants do transgress the law.
Even if it's a "metaphor", it's still a metaphor for the teaching "Infants are Sinners" -- certainly not the teaching "Infants are not Sinners". A "metaphor" isn't something that means the OPPOSITE of what it says.
Pray tell, Kangaroo -- if Psalm 58:3 is not teaching that Infants are Sinners, then what IS it teaching? Is Psalm 58:3 teaching that Infants ARE NOT Sinners?
And it's not just Psalm 58:3. From the Article:
Romans 5:12-19 teaches us that we all, infants included, sinned and died in the fall of Adam, the first man. Job (14:4) declared the sinfulness of infants when he said, "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!" The psalmist David declared the sinfulness of infants when he, speaking for us all, said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." And he poignantly declared the sinfulness of infants when he said in Psalm 58:3, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." Solomon includes infants when he teaches us in Ecclesiastes 7:20 that "there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin." And Jesus Christ includes infants when He teaches us in John 3:1-7 that "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" and in need of being "born again" by the Holy Spirit if he or she is to see or enter God's kingdom.
As is demonstrated by these Scriptures, any creature which is included in the Set of "Human Beings born of Adam" are, without any exceptions whatsoever, naturally Sinners and Separate from God.
Are Infants members of the Set "Human Beings born of Adam"? Indeed they are. Therefore, they fall under the teachings of these Scriptures. Since Infants are included in that Set, Infants are therefore naturally Sinners and Separate from God.
42 posted on
10/15/2004 8:47:18 AM PDT by
OrthodoxPresbyterian
(We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
To: Colonel Kangaroo
I know that I am joining this a bit late, but have you ever read Augustine's Confessions? He makes a pretty good case that while he was an infant, he did sin even though he did not have any memory of it. Something about being selfish, demanding, and not respecting his parents.
139 posted on
10/19/2004 8:25:03 AM PDT by
redgolum
(Molon labe)
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