this = Conelius' conversion experience
It does not fit the model of "faith comes from hearing...".
Perhaps I can clarify it for you then:
Acts 10:3-6 is not Cornelius' conversion experience. It was only an angelic visit. Your persistence in arguing it was a "conversion experience" is a false premise. Scripture records many angelic visitations, none of them (IIRC) were conversion experiences either as angels are "messengers" (that's what angel means). So in absence of any regeneration or falling/filling or sealing of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:3-6, there was no conversion of Cornelius in that passage.
As there was no conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10:3-6, it doesn't matter much from what 'position' an explantion is attempted (yours or mine). Explaining a false premise will always result in a false explanation.
But then I said previously, multiple times, my purpose was merely to refute your mis-application of Acts 10:2-7 as an example of 1Co 2:14 (see your post #271):
Starwind post # 265:
Wrong. [1Co 2:14 KJV] Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I believe when Paul wrote things of the Spirit of God ... they are spiritually discerned he meant things like gifts of the Spirit, fruit of the Spirit, as well as "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." - things of the kingdom of heaven.
HarleyD response:
That’s not what the verse says.
As always, God gives us examples in scriptures of His mighty works and this is no exception. There is a case in scriptures which illustrates the illumination and redemptive act of God. The scriptures says that Cornelius was a man who feared God (Acts 10:2). A vision of an angel came to Cornelius who told him that “his prayers and alms have ascended to God” and to send for Peter. (Acts 10:3-7). The question is, at this point in time do you think Cornelius was saved? If a brick would have fallen on Cornelius’ head while walking by the temple, would he have gone to heaven? He hadn’t heard the message yet but his prayers and alms had reached God. Do you think God would have allowed anything to happen to Cornelius until he heard from Peter?
Peter was afforded the opportunity to present the gospel to Cornelius (to teach Peter something as well I might add) and Peter no sooner got the words out of his mouth then the Holy Spirit "fell" upon Cornelius and company outwardly so that visible proof could be shown to the Jews (before they were baptized-but that's another topic).
There is no indication Cornelius made an intellectual decision. Besides, if Cornelius would have made some type of decision given his circumstances what do you think he would have decided? DUH!
I believe your case of “faith comes from hearing the word of God” falls apart under the example of Cornelius in scriptures. Your error is in boiling down the gospel to just simply speaking, hearing and making some type of “intellectual” choice.
You ask the rhetorical question is Cornelius' saved as of Acts 10:3-7 (the angelic visit) prior to his hearing Peter's message. This is your bias operating again. You ignore that Cornelius had believed in God and knew of Jesus ministry prior to the angelic vist and prior to Peter's message. Nothing indicates Cornelius' was saved in Acts 10:3-7. Scripture is silent on when Cornelius was regenerated aside from the falling of the Holy Spirit when Peter spoke of believing Jesus.
But Cornelius, an unregenerated man, believed in God based on what he had heard prior to the angelic visit and prior to the Holy Spirit falling. Cornelius further believed in Jesus when preached by Peter, also prior to the Holy Spirit falling.
You perist in arguing that Cornelius made no intellectual decision, ignoring:
I further responded in my post #272:
I have pointed out (repeatedly, ad nauseum) that Cornelius' believed in God and knew of Jesus' ministry long before Peter showed up - no more, no less - while you argue from silence that Cornelius must have been regenerated in Acts 10:3-7 when he was visited by an angel.
You have not proven where in Acts 10 Cornelius was regenerated prior to hearing the gospel, hence you have not proven that Acts 10 is an example of 1Co 2:14, nor have you proven that 1 Co 2:14 applies to the gospel not being believable by unregenerates.
You've proven nothing in your case.
Here in your own words is your "explanation" of Cornelius' conversion experience:
I would say illumination was the first step in the entire process. I’m not too crazy about the term “regeneration” since it means different things to different people. There is a post on how “regeneration” precedes conversion which I happen to agree with if we define “regeneration” as being “born of the Spirit”. But it’s a little confusing. In the case of Cornelius, God’s angel came to Cornelius first who spoke to Cornelius.
Salvation is a two step process-regeneration and conversion. In Acts 10:1-2 Cornelius shows signs of the regeneration process. Then God came to him (illumination-v3) and had Cornelius send to fetch Peter so that Peter could baptize him (conversion).
As I’ve stated earlier I believe the term “regeneration” is poor and I think that now more than ever. Different people have different interpretation for “regeneration”. From my understanding “regeneration” is not a single event but a series of events which takes place in a believers’ life. I would lay regeneration out as the following events: 1) predestined, 2) the calling (illumination and confession), 3) justification; 4) glorification (Rom 8:30). As you’ve stated, Cornelius was “predestined” by God in Acts 10:1-2. We saw the illumination in Acts 10:3-7 and there indeed was a confession from Cornelius as reported in by Peter in Acts 11:14. Cornelius was justified when the Holy Spirit fell upon them and, of course glorified upon his death and resurrection.
According to this timeline, in Cornelius case you drop off how Cornelius was “predestined” and the “illumination” experiences. I don’t believe God would have allowed anything to happen to Cornelius prior to his justification. Cornelius gave signs of being “born again” during the predestinated phase (e.g. being devout, giving alms). But it wasn’t until Peter baptized him in which he was truly saved. It is a two step process where God initiates the salvation experience by predestining us and calling us.
There is no way that word-salad could explain anything, regardless of the 'position' one ostensibly held. I have attempted to organize the steps (as you describe them in your words above) of the "illumination", "salvation", "regeneration", "predestination", etc. processes:
1) Illumination - Acts 10:3-7 very first step in entire process
2) Salvation is a two step process-regeneration and conversion - God initiates the salvation experience by predestining us and calling us.
2a - regeneration (Cornelius shows signs of regeneration in Act 10:1-2, then God came to him - illumination v3)
2a1 regeneration series of events 1) predestined Acts 10:1-2 (Cornelius gave signs of being “born again” during the predestinated phase)
2a2 regeneration series of events 2) the calling (illumination and confession)
2a3 regeneration series of events 3) justification (Acts 10:44 Cornelius was justified when the Holy Spirit fell)
2a4 regeneration series of events 4) glorification2b - conversion (when Peter could baptize Cornelius)
Harley, we do not serve a God of confusion.
I could never explain [Cornelius' conversion experience] either from your position of [faith comes from hearing].
Here is the simple plain biblical teaching from Peter himself explaining Cornelius' conversion experience (consistent with Paul's teaching in Rom 10:17 and Eph 1:13 of belief follows hearing and precedes sealing):
Act 11:17
"Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
After believing in Jesus, the gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit was given by God - after believing. Belief in the word preached preceded the Holy Spirit's regeneration, renewing and sealing (Tit 3:5-7, 2Co 1:21-22, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30).