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To: HarleyD; OrthodoxPresbyterian; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; connectthedots; gracebeliever
So, I'm going to address two issues mainly in this post:

1) The use of 1Co 2:14 as mistaken proof that the unregenerate can not believe the gospel.

2) The use of Acts 10 as mistaken proof that the unregenerate can not believe the gospel.

It will be shown both turn out to actually be arguments from silence.

(All cites are NASB)

1) The use of 1Co 2:14 as mistaken proof that the unregenerate can not believe the gospel.

Starwind post #265:

1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

I believe when Paul wrote things of the Spirit of God ... they are spiritually discerned he meant things like gifts of the Spirit, fruit of the Spirit, as well as "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." - things of the kingdom of heaven.

That’s not what the verse says.

Alrightythen. From the top, here is the context of what 1Co 2:14 is about, and to what 'things of the Spirit of God that natural man can not understand' Paul refers.

Picking up now with Paul addressing the misunderstanding of the Spirit's ministry of revealing in 1Co 2:6-16:

1Co 2:6-9 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."

1Co 2:10-13 For to us God revealed them [wisdom, things] through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

1Co 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

1Co 3:1-3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

1Co 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.

So Paul makes a distinction that the things of the Spirit of God of 1Co 2:14 are the "solid food" intended for mature spiritual men, whereas the gospel is the "milk" (not mentioned in 1Co 2:14) as suitable for fleshly men and infants in Christ.

And so to argue that 1Co 2:14 teaches that the unregenerate can not believe the gospel ("spiritual milk") if and when heard is to argue from silence, because 1Co 2:14 was:

2) The use of Acts 10 as mistaken proof that the unregenerate can not believe the gospel.

I believe your case of “faith comes from hearing the word of God” falls apart under the example of Cornelius in scriptures.

You'd best take this up with Paul then (Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ).

Your quarrel is really with him, as I merely relied on his statements. Charitably, how could you post near verbatim scripture and say it falls apart under some other scripture? Is not all scripture inerrant and self-consistent?

So, what does Acts 10 record, actually? I won't repeat it all, but here are the pertinent highlights:

So, Cornelius (a Gentile) knew before Peter's visit (and before the Holy Spirit fell) of Jesus ministry, miracles, and possibly teachings, and Cornelius had been a devout God-fearing man whose prayers were a memorial to God. Further, God considered Cornelius worthy of an angelic visitation with a verbal command that was to initiate, via Peter, the Gospel coming to the Gentiles.

Clearly, Cornelius believed in God and knew of Jesus' ministry long before Peter showed up. Cornelius already believed; believed in what precisely we don't entirely know, but it is entirely reasonable for us to understand from Act 10:38 that Cornelius minimally knew of and believed that Jesus was the anointed Son of God and Messiah. What else Cornelius first heard from Peter about Jesus' teachings is not clear. What is clear is that Cornelius previously 'heard' of and 'knew' (believed?) Jesus was the Son of God. After Peter taught further, then the Holy Spirit fell on all of them assembled, not just Cornelius.

There is nothing in Acts 10 that demonstrates Cornelius' regeneration (salvation and sealing) prior to belief and belief prior to hearing.

One must argue from silence and assume (in support of ones doctrine) that Cornelius was first regenerated and then believed and then heard - and that at this point Acts 10:1 picks up the story. In fact, arguably, regeneration, renewing and sealing occurred when the Holy Spirit fell - if one were to overreach.

But again, my simple point is that nothing in scripture supports OP's contention that (in OP's words):

it is impossible that a man should believe and trust the Gospel while he is Unregenerate, then -- In order to believe and trust the Gospel, is it necessary that an unsaved man must first be Regenerated by the Holy Spirit

Consequently, there is nothing about Cornelius (Peter, yes) in Acts 10 that demonstrates:

1Co 2:14: But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised

Again, Paul in 1Co 2:14 is referring to spiritual "solid food", not the "milk" suitable to men of flesh - infants in Christ.

Cornelius, prior to Peter's arrival, was already a devout God-fearing prayerful man who knew of and seemingly believed Jesus was the anointed Son of God. Cornelius knew these things by report; he had heard about them, perhaps had even read OT scripture, and he believed what he'd heard. What Cornelius heard and believed was not "solid food"; were not "things of the Spirit of God" of which Paul was teaching that could only be "spiritually appraised".

No, Cornelius had heard and believed "milk"; about the Israelite God and Jesus' miracles - things that would comprise the news headlines and watercooler discussions of the day, and Cornelius believed based on what he knew and the evidence heard, that the Israelite God existed and Jesus was His miracle-performing Son. That is not an insurmountable spiritual leap. That is simply believing what the evidence shows.

Acts 10 demonstrates spiritual "milk" had been consumed by Cornelius - an infant in Christ if not a fleshly man.

To otherwise argue that Cornelius was spiritually mature (in the sense conveyed by 1Cor 2) and that his fearing God and believeing Jesus ministry constitutes spiritual "solid food" is to argue from silence again, as Acts 10:37-38 bareley describes the gospel ("milk") let alone the hidden wisdom spiritual things of 1Co 2. Further, Paul's "solid food" teachings are considerably deeper than fearing God and believing Jesus.

Note carefully that I'm not changing my argument that the spiritual things of 1Co 2:14 are "solid food", whereas what Cornelius heard and believed about Jesus is what Paul termed "milk" suitable for men of flesh who could not be spoken to as spiritual men. (1Co 3:1).

Keep in mind your two arguments with 1Co 2:14 and Acts 10 were arguments from silence.

Addressing now some of your closing comments:

Your error is in boiling down the gospel to just simply speaking, hearing and making some type of “intellectual” choice. There is no room in your interpretation for the working of the Holy Spirit. In fact, I haven’t seen that mentioned very much at all.

Again you are trying to recast my argument that many passages of scripture show, simply, that belief in the gospel follows hearing the gospel and precedes regeneration (saved and sealed). No more, no less. But that is an argument (and its accompanying scripture) you keep deflecting to some other argument you'd rather have. I dwelt primarily on scripture showing man's ability to believe or disbelieve the gospel after hearing it. The listening (or not) and believing (or not) are done by man - not the Holy Spirit.

You seemingly want to see an argument wherein the Holy Spirit first does the regenerating and then does the believing on behalf of the "listener" and only then they listen to the gospel. So, no, I didn't mention the Holy Spirit in that capacity as I don't find it supported in scripture. But I did point out the Holy Spirit does the regenerating and sealing. Nor did I mention Moses, nor the Trinity, nor the crucifixion, nor the rapture, nor ... well if you expected a condensed bible in one post, I'm sorry to have disappointed you.

I stated quite clearly what my focus was (that belief in the gospel follows hearing the gospel and precedes regeneration), and I gather I was successful as your argument seems to be mainly with what you wanted me to say rather than what I did say.

272 posted on 10/26/2004 1:54:54 PM PDT by Starwind (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
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To: Starwind; HarleyD; OrthodoxPresbyterian; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; connectthedots; ...
"Clearly, Cornelius believed in God and knew of Jesus' ministry long before Peter showed up."

Well, it appears you have a different translation than mine if that’s clear. Especially since Jesus came to the Jews first and the ministry was to the Jews up until this point. I’ve must have missed something. Perhaps it was in your footnotes.

One must argue from silence and assume (in support of ones doctrine) that Cornelius was first regenerated and then believed and then heard - and that at this point Acts 10:1 picks up the story. In fact, arguably, regeneration, renewing and sealing occurred when the Holy Spirit fell - if one were to overreach.

Oh really? I guess it’s important to support one’s doctrine over careful examination of the scriptures. Are you saying Cornelius was regenerated, believed and heard and then was re-regenerated? Or perhaps Cornelius wasn’t regenerated at the time of the angel and if a brick would have fallen on his head God would have said, “Shucks, there’s one that got away.”

You seemingly want to see an argument wherein the Holy Spirit first does the regenerating and then does the believing on behalf of the "listener"...

I defined regeneration in term of "illumination" but this is something that must be difficult to understand. The Holy Spirit draws us to God leading us to all truths just as He did with Cornelius. From your comments the Holy Spirit doesn’t pop up until after we’re regenerated (whatever that is). You haven’t defined how the Holy Spirit works in the salvation experience or defined and explained regeneration in a comprehensible manner. You’ve just taken potshots at various passages without a careful exercise of scripture or a systematic theology.

If this is how you interpret scripture then there is no need for further discussions. It is apparent you'll cast scripture however it suits you regardless if the scriptures says it or not, assuming and reading things in that are not there.

You indeed are king of the Neener. It’s no wonder they’ve given you a badge of honor.

273 posted on 10/26/2004 3:32:20 PM PDT by HarleyD (I believe in dragons, fairy tales and man's goodness. - NOT)
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