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To: HarleyD

I can't say as I know much about atheists as I tend to avoid theological discussions with them. But I do not understand your post. Are you saying that the Church's original position in Free Will was that it didn't exist? Certainly Orthodox Christians from the beginning have believed in Free Will. Did I miss something?


123 posted on 10/19/2004 3:59:09 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: Kolokotronis; HarleyD
I can't say as I know much about atheists as I tend to avoid theological discussions with them. But I do not understand your post. Are you saying that the Church's original position in Free Will was that it didn't exist? Certainly Orthodox Christians from the beginning have believed in Free Will. Did I miss something?

Perhaps.

See -- contrary to generally-received Public Opinion on the matter -- Calvinists also believe in Free Will.

We simply affirm that, while a Man is yet Spiritually Dead, he will only and always employ his Free Will towards the Rejection of God.

Faith being God-pleasing, and the Spiritually-Dead being incapable of that which is God-pleasing, we thence affirm that the Spiritually Dead cannot exhibit Faith. The Spiritually Dead will always employ their Free Will in Enmity against God, for that is their nature.

In order to exhibit Faith, then, a Spiritually-Dead Man must be born again into Spiritual Liveliness by the purely-monergistic Regeneration of the Holy Spirit:

Which monergistic Regeneration by the Spirit proceeds only from the Father (and through the Son), AND NOT FROM THE MAN HIMSELF:

Best, OP

125 posted on 10/19/2004 4:19:22 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian

I, too tend to avoid vain philosophies of man especially atheists. However, in researching the Virgin Birth I was lead to a number of these atheist sites which I found intriguing. While kosta50 may feel there is no connection, I happen to think otherwise. You will find many of the same arguments about original sin and free will being argued by Christians here are the same ones atheists argue. I especially like the argument against original sin because the natural conclusion to this is man is basically good which is what some churches and atheists preach. Sorry, this is out and out heresy bordering on apostasy.

From my readings of the Church’s original position, the concept of synergistic free will (man choosing God) did not exist. Historically this view was introduced by Pelegian. Free will in the form of synergists was deemed heresy by the early church and the Church’s position was formalized at the Council of Orange in 529. Yet it’s prevalent throughout the church today including the Eastern Orthodox. I have not been able to trace when, where, or why this doctrine occurred in the Eastern Orthodox but I do know the source.

As OP stated, man has free will but it NEVER moves towards God. God calls the shots.

Do I think there is heresy here? Well, let’s see-1) the early church fathers thought so; 2) Pelegian was outcast; and 3) atheists support the notion. While this all may seem innocent, it is clear that heresy has entered the church.

And please don’t tell me about how long your church has been here. The Catholics tell me the same thing. That is nothing more than the traditions of men.


132 posted on 10/19/2004 6:04:57 AM PDT by HarleyD
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