CALVINISM: ITS DOCTRINE OF INFANT SALVATION

Are persons who die in infancy saved? Holy Scriptures do not directly address this subject. But various indirect declarations give us every reason to rest assured that they are indeed saved.

The goodness of God suggests the salvation of those who die in infancy. We read in Job 38:41 that He provides food for newborn ravens when they cry unto Him. Surely He will not turn a deaf ear to the cries of infants and permit them to be cast from His presence! We read in Psalm 145:15f that He provides food for "every living thing," even the most loathsome of creatures. Surely He will provide salvation for those made in His own image who die in infancy!

In various passages, the number of the redeemed in glory is so large as to suggest the salvation of those persons who died in infancy. For example, they are described in Revelation 7:9 as "a great multitude which no man could number." It is thought by many theologians that the number of souls in glory will be greater than that of the souls in the regions of the damned on the grounds that Christ must have the preeminence. This certainly will be true if the number of the redeemed in glory will include all those who died in infancy and childhood, which was a vast part of humanity in former times when a great percentage of children did not live long enough to reach adulthood. This number would also include the untold millions who today are snatched from their mothers' wombs and sacrificed by abortionists.

In Ezekiel 16:21, God called the children sacrificed to heathen gods "My children": "you have slain My children and offered them up to them by causing them to pass through the fire." God's children are received in glory, not consigned to hell.

In Jonah 4:11, we read that God had great pity on the citizens of Nineveh, especially upon its "more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left." Such pity suggests these infants would be received into glory if they died in infancy.

In Mark 10:14, Jesus Christ said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven." He then admonished adults in the next verse, "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

In 2 Samuel 12:23, David expressed his own assurance that his own departed infant was received into heaven, and that he himself would later be forever reunited with him there: "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

The great question before us not is not whether persons dying in infancy are saved and received into glory. Holy Scriptures would seem to assure us that they indeed are. Rather, the question before us should be whether the parents and loved ones of those who die in infancy will be reunited with them in glory.

Arminians err when they aver that persons dying in infancy are saved because of their supposed innocence. Arminians are driven to this view because of a fatal flaw in their scheme of salvation. Arminians believe that God has done all He can to save sinners, and that the success of His desire and endeavor rests solely upon those sinners exercising their supposed "free will" in making what they call a "decision for Christ." Arminians declare that if sinners do not make such a conscious and deliberate decision to let God save them, God cannot do so.

This Arminian heresy mercilessly shuts the door of salvation to infants who are in every way incapable of their own will to make a "decision for Christ." Arminians admit this fatal flaw to their scheme of salvation, but they are not willing to concede that persons dying in infancy are forever lost and damned. Arminians therefore must devise another scheme by which God saves infants, thereby averring that God saves adults in one way, and infants in another.

This Arminian dilemma is compounded for Campbellites, the disciples of Alexander Campbell (1788-1866). Campbellites are not only Arminian, but also among the most strident proponents of the heresy of baptismal regeneration. They emphatically deny that anyone can be saved apart from baptism. This Campbellite heresy also mercilessly shuts the door of salvation to unbaptized infants — unless another scheme of salvation can be devised for them.

Arminians generally believe the scheme for the salvation for infants involves their innocence and/or the fact that they have not reached the age of accountability – whatever that is!

This Arminian scheme for the salvation of infants contradicts Holy Scriptures in at least two ways. First, it denies that God has but one plan for salvation, and posits instead that He saves adults in one way and infants in another.

Second, this Arminian scheme for the salvation of infants denies the Biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of the whole human race, including infants.

Romans 5:12-19 teaches us that we all, infants included, sinned and died in the fall of Adam, the first man.

Job (14:4) declared the sinfulness of infants when he said, "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!"

The psalmist David declared the sinfulness of infants when he, speaking for us all, said in Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me."

And he poignantly declared the sinfulness of infants when he said in Psalm 58:3, "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Solomon includes infants when he teaches us in Ecclesiastes 7:20 that "there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin."

And Jesus Christ includes infants when He teaches us in John 3:1-7 that "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" and in need of being "born again" by the Holy Spirit if he or she is to see or enter God's kingdom.

Another flaw of the Arminian view is that it in reality denies infant salvation. There is no need of salvation for those who are innocent! "Infant salvation" is a misnomer for Arminians.

Roman Catholics err when they aver that persons dying in infancy are saved if they are baptized. One of the first great heresies to plague the church of Christ was the mistaken belief that salvation is obtained through baptism. Since those who embraced this heresy wished to prevent their children from dying unbaptized, and therefore unsaved, they baptized them as soon as they were born. Scriptures deny both the heresy of baptismal regeneration and of the baptism of infants.

Nevertheless, the Roman Catholic Church emphatically declares that infants and young children dying unbaptized are forbidden to enter heaven. According to the article "Infants, Unbaptized" in A Catholic Dictionary, "The Church has always taught that unbaptized children are excluded from heaven .... Heaven is a reward in no way due to their human nature as such."

Calvinists rightly teach that persons dying in infancy are saved in the same manner as are saved adults. God has only one plan of salvation. It teaches that sinners are saved by God's free and sovereign grace in Jesus Christ, totally apart from any works of righteousness they perform or any supposed virtue in them. Everyone who is saved — including all persons dying in infancy — is saved through being elected to salvation by God the Father, redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, and regenerated or born again by the Holy Spirit (as set forth in preceding messages).

Calvinists believe persons dying in infancy are saved in this manner. Contrary to the slanders of Arminians and Romanists, Calvinists do not believe any persons dying in infancy are damned.

One of the most glorious aspects of the Calvinist doctrine of infant salvation is that it magnifies the goodness and grace of God in salvation and in no way contradicts Holy Scriptures. To the contrary, Arminianism denies the need of God's grace for the salvation of infants. And Romanism exalts the work of parents in having their infants baptized, and bars from heaven the departed infants of those parents who did not do so.

We Calvinists alone can rightly assure the parents and friends of departed infants that they are saved and received into glory.

But we also exhort these same parents and friends to trust in Jesus Christ for their own salvation. None but such persons can say with assurance the words of David regarding his own departed infant, "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Most Calvinists whole-heartedly affirm that all persons dying in infancy are saved, even though they acknowledge the Bible has no definitive doctrine on this subject. Some Calvinists will go only so far as to acknowledge that the Bible definitely teaches that at least some persons dying in infancy are saved. But no representative Calvinist theologian declares that any person dying in infancy is damned. (See the preceding message, #171.)

Arminians nevertheless deliberately misrepresent Calvinists as believing persons dying in infancy are damned. Let the following quotations from some of the most renown Calvinists suffice to show that the Arminian accusation is false.

John Calvin, the sixteenth-century Reformer for whom Calvinism is named, asserted, "I do not doubt that the infants whom the Lord gathers together from this life are regenerated by a secret operation of the Holy Ghost." And "he speaks of the exemption of infants from the grace of salvation 'as an idea not free from execrable blasphemy'" (cited by Augustus Strong in Systematic Theology). He furthermore declared that "to say that the countless mortals taken from life while yet infants are precipitated from their mothers' arms into eternal death is a blasphemy to be universally detested" (quoted in Presbyterian and Reformed Review, Oct. 1890: pp.634-51).

Charles Hodge was a 19th-century professor of theology at Princeton Seminary, which was in those days a foremost American bastion of Calvinism. He wrote: "All who die in infancy are saved. This is inferred from what the Bible teaches of the analogy between Adam and Christ. 'As by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.' (Rom. v.18,19.) We have no right to put any limit on these general terms, except what the Bible itself places upon them. The Scriptures nowhere exclude any class of infants, baptized or unbaptized, born in Christian or in heathen lands, of believing or unbelieving parents, from the benefits of the redemption of Christ. All the descendants of Adam, except Christ, are under condemnation; all the descendants of Adam, except those of whom it is expressly revealed that they cannot inherit the kingdom of God, are saved. This appears to be the clear meaning of the Apostle, and therefore he does not hesitate to say that where sin abounded, grace has much more abounded, that the benefits of redemption far exceed the evils of the fall; that the number of the saved far exceeds the number of the lost" (Systematic Theology, vol.I, p.26)

John Newton, author of the favorite hymn "Amazing Grace," became a Calvinistic Anglican minister in 1764, serving the English parishes in Olney, Buckinghamshire, and London. In a letter to a friend he wrote, "Nor can I doubt, in my private judgment, that [infants] are included in the election of grace. Perhaps those who die in infancy, are the exceeding great multitude of all people, nations, and languages mentioned, Revelations, vii.9, in distinction from the visible body of professing believers, who were marked in the foreheads, and openly known to be the Lord's" (The Works of John Newton, vol.VI, p.182)

Alvah Hovey was a 19th-century American Baptist who served many years in Newton Theological Institution, and edited The American Commentary. He wrote in one of his books: "Though the sacred writers say nothing in respect to the future condition of those who die in infancy, one can scarcely err in deriving from this silence a favorable conclusion. That no prophet or apostle, that no devout father or mother, should have expressed any solicitude as to those who die before they are able to discern good from evil is surprising, unless such solicitude was prevented by the Spirit of God. There are no instances of prayer for children taken away in infancy. The Savior nowhere teaches that they are in danger of being lost. We therefore heartily and confidently believe that they are redeemed by the blood of Christ and sanctified by His Spirit, so that when they enter the unseen world they will be found with the saints" (Biblical Eschatology, pp.170f).

Lorraine Boettner was a 20th-Century Presbyterian who taught Bible for eight years in Pikeville College, Kentucky. In his book The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination he wrote at some length in defense of the Calvinist doctrine of infant salvation. We here quote from his remarks: "Calvinists, of course, hold that the doctrine of original sin applies to infants as well as to adults. Like all other sons of Adam, infants are truly culpable because of race sin and might be justly punished for it. Their 'salvation' is real. It is possible only through the grace of Christ and is as truly unmerited as is that of adults. Instead of minimizing the demerit and punishment due to them for original sin, Calvinism magnifies the mercy of God in their salvation. Their salvation means something, for it is the deliverance of guilty souls from eternal woe. And it is costly, for it was paid for by the suffering of Christ on the cross. Those who take the other view of original sin, namely, that it is not properly sin and does not deserve eternal punishment, make the evil from which infants are 'saved' to be very small, and consequently the love and gratitude which they owe to God to be small also.

"... Calvinism ... extends saving grace far beyond the boundaries of the visible church. If it is true that all of those who die in infancy, in heathen as well as in Christian lands, are saved, then more than half of the human race up to the present time has been among the elect."

B.B. Warfield, born in Kentucky in 1851, was along with Abraham Kuyper and Herman Bavinck one of the three most outstanding Reformed theologians in his day. He wrote concerning those who die in infancy: "Their destiny is determined irrespective of their choice, by an unconditional decree of God, suspended for its execution on no act of their own; and their salvation is wrought by an unconditional application of the grace of Christ to their souls, through the immediate and irresistible operation of the Holy Spirit prior to and apart from any action of their own proper wills... And if death in infancy does depend on God's providence, it is assuredly God in His providence who selects this vast multitude to be made participants of His unconditional salvation.... This is but to say that they are unconditionally predestinated to salvation from the foundation of the world" (quoted in Boettner's book).

Charles Haddon Spurgeon is perhaps the most-widely recognized name among Calvinists next to John Calvin. He served many years in the 19th-century as pastor in the Metropolitan Tabernacle in London, England. He preached on September 29, 1861, a message entitled "Infant Salvation" (#411 in Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit). In this message, Mr. Spurgeon not only convincingly proved from Holy Scriptures the belief of Calvinists that all persons dying in infancy are saved, but also soundly rebuked those Arminians and others who wrongly accuse us otherwise:

"It has been wickedly, lyingly, and slanderously said of Calvinists, that we believe that some little children perish. Those who make the accusation know that their charge is false. I cannot even dare to hope, though I would wish to do so, that they ignorantly misrepresent us. They wickedly repeat what has been denied a thousand times, what they know is not true.... I know of no exception, but we all hope and believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect. Dr. Gill, who has been looked upon in late times as being a very standard of Calvinism, not to say of ultra-Calvinism, himself never hints for a moment the supposition that any infant has perished, but affirms of it that it is a dark and mysterious subject, but that it is his belief, and he thinks he has Scripture to warrant it, that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God, and so have entered into eternal rest. We have never taught the contrary, and when the charge is brought, I repudiate it and say, 'You may have said so, we never did, and you know we never did. If you dare to repeat the slander again, let the lie stand in scarlet on your very cheek if you be capable of a blush.' We have never dreamed of such a thing. With very few and rare exceptions, so rare that I never heard of them except from the lips of slanderers, we have never imagined that infants dying as infants have perished, but we have believed that they enter into the paradise of God."

Whom will you believe: Calvinists speaking for themselves? or Arminians deliberately misrepresenting them?

Your descision to ignore wide swaths of scripture in order to support your ideas is a clear picture of why modern seminary students are scripturally liberal or scriptural legalists. Extremes that are causing division in the body. The power thereof is a commentary by the Holy Spirit regarding reliance on His tutoring individuals to know God by considering the whole of scripture. Formulated Christianity always leads to putting God in a box. The Pharisees came up with lists of laws just like in your post #81. I understand that you are trying to base these formulas on scripture, but it is not needful. The Holy Spirit uses the Word in each individuals life to accomplish differing tasks. Clearly the standards always line up, yet the methods will and do vary. P.S. A retarded person can't understand your formulas, but that doesn't stop the Holy Spirit from using them. It is, after all, an intimate personal relationship. I am basing my beliefs on scripture, which ,most importantly, reveals the character of God. The Bible is a love story, written in blood!

Translation:

insert other tired, worn-out cliche' here

actually address

Sorry, that's pretty much what I got out of your post.

Anytime you'd actually like to, y'know, discuss the Scriptures I have posted, we can start over.

Best, OP

Regarding our participation in this life, Two-way-streetism as revealed by scripture. May the Holy Spirit open your eyes to God's longsuffering. The Holy Spirit goes to great lengths in these passages to show you this characteristic of God. In Calvinistic formula, God destroys Pharaoh right away. Under scriptural, Holy Spirit inspired truth, God gives a man choice after choice, after choice, after choice... till - Gen 6:3 "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

God
Exo 7:13
13 And he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Pharaoh
Exo 7:14
14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh’s heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Pharaoh
Exo 7:22
22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Pharaoh
Exo 8:15
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Pharaoh
Exo 8:19
19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Pharaoh
Exo 8:32
32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Pharaoh
Exo 9:7
7 And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

God
Exo 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Pharaoh
Exo 9:34
34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Pharaoh
Exo 9:35
35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

God's eternal foreknowledge of the choices of man. How to understand this is why we debate! Yet the Holy Spirit shall not always strive with man. Why strive, because "but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9 Spoken to Hebrew believers about God's desire for those not yet believing.

Be careful you don't end up standing in the rain, three steps short of your house, because your ox fell in a ditch.

No, now you've gone from blithely making up completely Unscriptural beliefs about Regeneration and the Old Testament to blithely telling Calvinists what you think we should believe (even though we don't).

Under "Calvinistic formula" (that is to say, the Gospel; for "Calvinism" is but a nick-name for the Gospel, nothing more), God endures the Reprobate with much longsuffering, that His Elect might realize more deeply the fact that their Free Will (obviously) had nothing to do with their own Salvation. By demonstrating that no matter how long He suffers the Reprobate they will never turn to Him, He makes us to understand that neither would any of us -- but for His unilateral, monergistic Regeneration based solely upon His own Election.

And, as usual, Scriptures to prove my point:

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Under scriptural, Holy Spirit inspired truth, God gives a man choice after choice, after choice, after choice... till - Gen 6:3 "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."

True, but utterly irrelevant.

The issue is not that "God gives a man choice after choice, after choice, after choice..."; of course He does. I agree with that. The Scriptures teach as much.

But the express teaching of the Scriptures which you will not accept, because you do not desire to believe what the Bible teaches, is that no matter how many choices God gives a Spiritually Dead Man, that Spiritually Dead Man will always and only use his Free Will to REJECT God as long as he remains Unregenerate.

So teaches the Bible, as abundantly proved by the avalanche of Scripture I have posted above.
You just don't want to believe the Bible, that's all. Well -- at least you're in pretty numerous company, on that count.

Actually, Peter declares right up front in his Epistles that he is talking to THE ELECT, so when he speaks of God being "longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish", he is speaking of the fact that God allows the Creation to continue in existence until He has brought in the last of His Chosen Elect, according to His ordained timetable.

But, your mis-interpretation of this Verse is irrelevant to the point. The point is, even though we Calvinists of course *grant* that God is fully willing to accept the Repentance of any Spiritually Dead Man who would turn to him, what the Bible teaches, is that no matter how many choices God gives a Spiritually Dead Man, that Spiritually Dead Man will always and only use his Free Will to REJECT God as long as he remains Unregenerate.

So teaches the Bible, as abundantly proved by the avalanche of Scripture I have posted above.

You continually evade addressing these Scriptures, for they prove that the doctrine nick-named "Calvinism" is nothing more than the Biblical Gospel itself, and "Not-Being-A-Calvinist" is more important to you than believing the Biblical Gospel.

Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

You say, "Any time you would like to discuss the Scriptures...," you really mean that "If you differ from me, I'll ignore, not respond to and flat out reject any of your Scripture references and castigate you in the process." This thread, thanks to you, has devolved into "profane and vain babblings" (2Ti. 2:15-21) and has become totally unprofitable.

You have been shown Scripture after Scripture which you reject calling the poster a heretic. Yet you do not even understand what "elect" is according to the plain words of Scripture. FYI it ain't "elect to salvation," it is "elect to service" to ALL who believe. A sixth grader can figure this out without adding words to what God plainly and clearly tells us.

Throughout the Bible, man has free will to either accept or reject God and His provision for salvation. (For example see Deut. 30:19; 1Cor. 8:9; Gal. 5:13; 1Cor. 7:39; Amos 3:3 as a starter.) And yet you maintain that man does not have free will. It actually takes a bigger God to allow this freedom of thought and will by man that He created than you purport. In fact, this is the highest form of sovereignty.

A good example is comparing the sovereignty of Nebuchadnezzar with that of Darius in Daniel. Calvinism places God in the Darius type of sovereignty, which actually boxes Him in. The Calvinistic view of God's sovereignty essentially states that every thing was planned out by God before the world began and nothing can change that plan. This is referred to as "fatalism," which is akin to how the Islamic religion views things.

If you openly look at the Scriptures without out the Calvinist blinders, you will even find that predestination refers to the predetermined goal that God has for every believer. In other words, the Bible is clear that God doesn't predetermine who will be saved. He has great plans for those who are saved, with the saved ultimately becoming "conformed to the image of Christ."

A prime example is found in Romans 9:22-24 where Paul makes an application of what he stated in earlier verses. Predestinarians interpret this passage as meaning God chooses in advance who will receive wrath/destruction and who will receive mercy/glory. What Paul IS saying is that God determines what will become of those deserving wrath and what will become of those deserving mercy. Someone put it that it is like God has established two clubs, the "wrath club" and the "mercy club." The "benefits" of belonging to either club has been determined and stated by God, but membership is open to "whoever" wants to join. Thank God that He made it possible for a person to go from the wrath club to the mercy club by faith in Jesus Christ, but not the other way. Then they become "vessels of mercy" which God has predetermined to be "prepared unto glory." (Ro. 9:23) "Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles." (Ro. 9:24) Grace and peace.

Again, I don't think you understand what the Archbishop has written. The Eastern Church has never taught salvation by works. Here, try this from St. Maximos the Confessor:

"Everyone who does not apply himself to the spiritual contemplation of Holy Scripture has, Judaic-wise, also rejected both the natural and the written law; and he is ignorant of the law of grace which confers deification on those who are obedient to it. He who understands the written law in a literal manner does not nourish his soul with the virtues. He who does not grasp the inner principles of created beings fails to feast his intellect on the manifold wisdom of God. And he who is ignorant of the great mystery of the new grace does not rejoice in the hope of future deification. Thus failure to contemplate the written law spiritually results in a dearth (lack, an indequate supply) of the divine wisdom to be apprehended in the natural law; and this in its turn is followed by a complete ignorance of the deification given by grace according to the new mystery." p. 267 Vol. II The Philokalia.

Or this from the Theoretikon of St. Theodorus the Great Ascetic:

"One must first deny oneself and then, taking up the cross, must follow the Master toward the supreme state of deification." p. 38 Vol. II The Philokalia

"To come to another point: everything may be understood in terms of its purpose. It is this that determines the division of everything into its purpose. It is this that determines the division of everything into its constituent parts, as well as the mutual relationship of those parts. Now the purpose of our life is blessedness or, what is the same thing, the kingdom of heaven or of God. This is not only to behold the Trinity, supreme in Kingship, but also to receive an influx of the divine and, as it were, to suffer deification; for by this influx what is lacking and imperfect in us is supplied and perfected. And the provision by such divine influx of what is needed is the food of spiritual beings. There is a kind of eternal circle, which ends where it begins. For the greater our noetic perception, the more we long to perceive; and the greater our longing, the greater our enjoyment; and the greater our enjoyment, the more our perception is deepened, and so the motionless movement, or the motionless immobility, begins again. Such then is our purpose, in so far as we can understand it." p. 43 Vol. II The Philokalia

Or this from our Father St. Ignatius of Antioch:

"Virtues and vices are the food of the soul and it can feed on either one, turning to whichever one it wants. If it is bent toward moral excellence, it will be fed by virtue - by righteousness, temperance, meekness, endurance. In other words, it is just as St. Paul says, 'being nourished by the word of truth' (1 Tim. 4:6)."

You see, this is what the Fathers have always taught. This position was established without reference to the Pelagian heresy which +Augustine wrote "Concerning Original Sin" in opposition to. In fact, did you know that Augustine wrote in Latin and his work wasn't even translated into Greek until around the 14th Century? Augustine recognized the danger posed by Pelagianism to the Orthodox Faith taught by the Church. His attack on Pelagianism is, for us in the East a bit over the top, but he was writing for a Western ( well at least a Latin North African) audience which viewed the world in a rather more "legalistic" way than Eastern audiences. He probably didn't read Greek or at least not well and worked from Latin translations of earlier Greek Patristic works. The problem is that Latin doesn't translate Greek well at all. One of the major problems arose over the nature of the human soul as expounded by the Greek Fathers and the Latin translations of their works. Be that as it may, Western concepts of justification by faith, works or faith and works simply were not issues in the East. Interestingly, there has been a great deal of discussion on this very question during Orthodox/Lutheran talks and it appears likely that the Lutherans do in fact accept the Orthodox theology on this matter. Again, it was a problem with Westerners trying to express a theology which was expounded originally in Greek and then translated into Latin. In the West, the influence of +Augustine's defense of Orthodoxy as he understood it lead to a distinction which the East simply doesn't make, or doesn't make in the way the West does (it also lead to the idea of predestination, which the East and much of the West rejected). The ramifications of all of this are vast when it comes to theosis or salvation.

Suffice to say that much of the Protestant West's theology on this matter arises out of a different set of assumptions about salvation and the nature of the soul than in the East. For example, the East speaks of the "nous" and yet there is, to my knowledge, no equivalent of the nous in Western theology. It is not my purpose to argue with you. Orthodoxy does not argue with the West on these issues. We believe what God has revealed to the Church in the 7 Great Ecumenical Councils, no more, no less. Extra conciliar Theological developments in the West, like what much of Protestantism did with +Augustine simply don't have much meaning for us. But I am always happy to have the Western pov laid out for me.

The Biblical Laws of Human Depravity:

LAW 1.) The Spiritually Dead are born wicked. (Genesis 8:21; Psalms 58:3)
LAW 2.) All humanely-benevolent works of the Spiritually Dead are considered by God to be unclean filthiness. (Isaiah 64:6)
LAW 3.) As long as he is Spiritually Dead, the Unregenerate Man never freely wills the action of Righteous Good. (Jeremiah 13:23)
LAW 4.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are only and always set upon the doing of evil. (Ecclesiastes 8:11)
LAW 5.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are spiritually insane. (Ecclesiastes 9:3)
LAW 6.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always despise the Light of Grace. (John 3:19)
LAW 7.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always reject the ministrations of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 7:51)
LAW 8.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER Seek God. (Romans 3:10-11)
LAW 9.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER will any action whatsoever of Righteous Good. (Romans 3:12)
LAW 10.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, it is defined as BIBLICALLY-IMPOSSIBLE that the Unregenerate Man should ever will any Righteous Good. (Romans 7:18)
LAW 11.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER perform any God-pleasing Action of Will whatsoever. (Romans 8:5-8)
Law 12.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are utterly incapable of knowing, understanding, or believing any Spiritual Truth. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Three simple explainations you are overlooking.

1.) It is impossible for a person who is a slave to sin to do God's will.

2.) Spiritually dead people do not have the indwelt Holy Spirit to lead them to the truth of the scriptures.

3.) Those who reject the manifold exhibitions of the One and true God's glory are without excuse and are willingly ignorant.

We can do what the scripture says is good, however if it is not the will of God for us, it is sin. This is why only God can be considered good. All of these scriptures highlight this simple fact. Without excuse and willingly ignorant will be the righteous criteria God uses to judge the people who have rejected the testimony of the Holy Spirit and all of creation.

Reconsider your perspective.

Well, the word means "elect", "select" or "chosen" and is used about 15 times from Romans to Revelations. I don't know how any of these verses could be construed "elected for service".

Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,

Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

1Pe 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, ...

Well, you get the picture.

Whack that Straw Man!! Whack 'im, hard!!

Real impressive how you accuse me of "not responding to and flat out rejecting any of (our) Scripture references" and of "maintaining that man does not have free will". Quite damning stuff, except that it's a flat-out Lie.

Here's the Truth, just to refresh your memory: I have consistently agreed that Man DOES have Free Will, and have completely accepted all Scriptures presented in support of that argument. Let me say that again, and I'll type slowly so maybe you'll get it: I - do - not - "maintain - that - man - does - not - have - free - will". Nor do I reject any of the Scriptures advanced to demonstrate that point. Do you get it, YET?

Now, let's review: What I HAVE consistently maintained, and for which I HAVE presented a mountain of Scriptural Evidence to which neither of you have responded even once, is the Fact that the Bible ALSO teaches us just exactly WHAT a Spiritually-Dead Man WILL DO with his Free Will, each and every time he is offered a choice:

While a Man remains Spiritually-Dead, he will ALWAYS AND ONLY use his Free Will to REJECT GOD. Thus saith the Scriptures:

LAW 1.) The Spiritually Dead are born wicked. (Genesis 8:21; Psalms 58:3)
LAW 2.) All humanely-benevolent works of the Spiritually Dead are considered by God to be unclean filthiness. (Isaiah 64:6)
LAW 3.) As long as he is Spiritually Dead, the Unregenerate Man never freely wills the action of Righteous Good. (Jeremiah 13:23)
LAW 4.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are only and always set upon the doing of evil. (Ecclesiastes 8:11)
LAW 5.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are spiritually insane. (Ecclesiastes 9:3)
LAW 6.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always despise the Light of Grace. (John 3:19)
LAW 7.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men always reject the ministrations of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 7:51)
LAW 8.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER Seek God. (Romans 3:10-11)
LAW 9.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER will any action whatsoever of Righteous Good. (Romans 3:12)
LAW 10.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, it is defined as BIBLICALLY-IMPOSSIBLE that the Unregenerate Man should ever will any Righteous Good. (Romans 7:18)
LAW 11.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER perform any God-pleasing Action of Will whatsoever. (Romans 8:5-8)
Law 12.) As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are utterly incapable of knowing, understanding, or believing any Spiritual Truth. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Once the nature of Spiritual Death is correctly understood according to the teachings of Scripture, it becomes clearly evident that it is Biblically-impermissible to teach that Unregenerate men "respond to" and "choose God" prior to God's own monergistic Regeneration of their dead spirits.

And God regenerates whomsoever He will, according to His own Election.

I don't argue nor do I take you to be arguing. This type of forum doesn't emphasize what wonderful, warm people we are. :O)

Your post puzzled me since, if the Orthodox hold Augustine in such low regards as a church father, and Augustine had the backing of the Council of Orange, then just who are the church fathers the Orthodox have listen too? If Augustine arch-rival was Pelegian then logic follows that Orthodoxy is built upon the teaching of Pelegian.

I did some research and found the following article. Due to space I'll post only a portion of it and the reference:

John Cassian was a contemporary of St. Augustine in Gaul (modern France). A Semi-Pelagian monk and founder of many monasteries, he wrote The Institutes and Conferences and slightly modified Pelagius's teachings. "The Semi-Pelagian doctrine taught by John Cassian (d. 440) admits that divine grace (assistance) is necessary to enable a sinner to return unto God and live, yet holds that, from the nature of the human will, man may first spontaneously, of himself, desire and attempt to choose and obey God. They deny the necessity of prevenient but admit the necessity of cooperative grace and conceive regeneration as the product of this cooperative grace." A.A. Hodge

While the Pelagian controversy was at its height, John Cassian, of Syrian extraction and educated in the Eastern Church, having removed to Marseilles, in France, for the purpose of advancing the interests of monkery in that region, began to give publicity to a scheme of doctrine occupying a middle position between the systems of Augustine and Pelagius. This system, whose advocates were called Massilians from the residence of their chief, and afterward Semi-pelagians, is in its essential principles one with that system which is now commonly called Arminianism. Faustus, bishop of Priez, in France, from A. D. 427 to A. D. 480, was one of the most distinguished and successful advocates of this doctrine, which was permanently accepted by the Eastern Church, and for a time was widely disseminated throughout the Western also, until it was condemned by the Canons of Orange, A. D. 529. Sadly, just as Eastern Orthodoxy had done, Roman Catholicism in the middle ages also abandoned the clear biblical teachings on salvation by grace alone that were agreed upon in this synod. Later, Arminans were to take the same path, having also embraced the erroneous doctrine that man, in his depraved state, has the moral ability to turn his affections toward God.

Eastern Orthodox Christians will argue that Cassian was not a semi-pelagian but Cassian himself saw grace and freedom as parallel, grace always cooperating with the human will for man's salvation." (p. 56; cf. Phil. 2:12-13) He taught that the grace of God always invites, precedes and helps our will, and whatever gain freedom of will may attain for its pious effect is not its own desert, but the gift of grace - a grace that is resistible and ineffectual. This is none other than the historical error of Semi-pelagianism/Arminianism, call it what you will. For more on this see his writing, On Grace and Free Will: his famous Conference XIII.

Reference: Do Arminian Theology, Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy Have Similar Roots?

It should be noted that Arminians, Catholics and Eastern Orthodxy all argue with us Calvinists about these issues so there must be some truth to this article.

And, according to Scripture, As long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men NEVER perform any God-pleasing Action of Will whatsoever(Romans 8:5-8);

Because of their sin nature, they cannot do anything good. To do good, one must do what God wants one to do. As I have said, an unbeliever can do some of the things that the Bible says are right, however, being a slave to their sin nature, the deed will be outside of God's will. To do God's will one must have intimate spiritual fellowship with the Father in order to know what God's will is for that individual. "Spiritually alive", "Eternal Life", "Born Again", "New Life", "New Creature"...Seperate from this one-on-one relationship, where God is the director of ones life, it becomes mere religion as with the Pharisees.

and as long as they are Spiritually Dead, the hearts of Unregenerate Men are utterly incapable of knowing, understanding, or believing any Spiritual Truth.

Until a person is walking in the will of God, they cannot know what Spiritual truth even is. An unbeliever can understand right and wrong, but doing "right", outside of God's will, is wrong e.g. (Marrying to avoid premarital impregnation, as opposed to marrying a God chosen person in order to be right with God). Can you see the difference from what your perspective is. God desires a personal relationship, not to make cloned goody-goody two shoes, scripturally perfectly accurate, but to enjoy the fellowship we were designed to have with Him.

The Holy Spirit is the one that opens our eyes to what the scripture means, not because we are Christians, but rather because we are moved to relate with Him who is in our heart. He takes more joy in our sitting at His feet, recognizing His all encompassing understanding of our lives and our needs, than He does from our gaining understanding to demonstrate to others our Biblical adherence. Above all is Love. Our first love, Jesus, because He first loved us.

All true Christians want to be Biblically accurate, but none of us are. We will see our mistakes clearly when we get to heaven. But we have an opportunity to share the beauty of our relationhip that our Creator has revived.

Therefore, the heart of a Spiritually Dead man must first be unilaterally and monergistically regenerated by God in order to believe.

I cannot understand how we can be a believer before we believe, but that is your doctrine. Redemption is a gift that can be actively received. When I tell people that Salvation is a gift that they can receive right now, the Holy Spirit helps me to look into their eyes and let them know that God loves them no matter what. One move of public, whole hearted acceptance of the Gospel and they are saved. From there God, literally, handles us the rest of the way.

OK, here goes in short answer form:

Romans 8:33 - First of all, "elect" in this verse is plural, referring then to the Body of Christ, not an individual. This, in context, which begins in verse 28, has to do with God's purpose, or those who are "the called according to his purpose." Which then is stated in verse 29, "to be conformed to the image of his Son."

Romans 11:7 - The "election" in this verse is the same as in verse 5, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." This "remnant" is explained in Ro. 9:6b, "'For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." In Isa. 9:8 it is put this way, "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it has lighted upon Israel." Israel is the believing nation, or the remnant, and Jacob is the whole nation. Isa. 45:4 says, "For Jacob my servant's sake, and ISRAEL MINE ELECT..." To be considered elect, one had to be identified with the believing nation, the remnant, or the true Israel of God. Acts 13:17 tells us that Israel was chosen to be exalted and it is based on being identified with the fathers. The unbelieving nation is blinded.

1Cor. 1:28 - This verse has a context that begins in at least verse 17. Verse 26 tells us to examine our calling and lets us know who have a hard time being included in the called. Verse 27 says, "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise..." In this instance, the chosen, or the Body of Christ, displays the wisdom of God, as we're also told in Ephesians, to confound the "things that are mighty," which brings Him glory. That a purpose of being chosen in this passage - has nothing to do with being chosen to salvation. Note in verse 26, Paul is addressing this to "brethren," or already saved people.

Col. 3:12 - This verse tells us what God's purpose in the elect is, and how we're to be in the world. This is the context of this chapter. Note v. 10, we see again that God wants us to be "renewed in knowledge after the image of him (Christ) that created him (man)." That's how we serve him by the list of things Paul states in this chapter.

2Thes. 2:13 - In both 1 and 2 Thessalonians, Paul discusses the tribulation period and that "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." (1Thes. 5:9) God has chosen us, or appointed us, to be delivered from "the day of the Lord" and the "sudden destruction" that will "befall the lost." But a person must believe the truth and be saved, which is "by our gospel," verse 14. An important point is understanding that "salvation" does not always mean spiritual salvation. A frequent meaning in Scripture is physical deliverance. So here, without giving a treatise, the meaning is that God is providing physical deliverance from the horrors to befall man in the tribulation. Again, the people Paul is addressing are already saved.

In sum, God extends a call to man through the gospel. Those who believe become members of the Body of Christ. God has determined to set the Body of Christ apart and deliver them from the tribulation. When a person believes the gospel, he receives this benefit which God already planned to provide for the Body of Christ.

Titus 1:1 - Here Paul is referring to "the faith of God's elect." That of course is none other that the Lord Jesus Christ, who is God's elect. Being in Him, in the truest sense, is how anyone is considered elect. Isa. 42:1 says, "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; MINE ELECT, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." It is evident this is Christ by the following verses. This also demonstrates that "elect" does not mean "elect to salvation" since the Lord did not need to be saved. The "faith of Christ" is how we are to live in the world, Gal. 2:20.

1Pe. 1:1,2 - First, Peter is addressing the nation of Israel in this epistolary letter, as stated in v. 1. In case there is any confusion, Peter clarifies in the next chapter, 2:9, that they are "chosen" an "holy nation." This refers directly back to Ex. 19:6, "...and an holy nation. These are the words thou art shalt speak unto the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL." Peter is simply identifying his readers as part of the elect nation which God chose according to His foreknowledge to be a "kingdom of priests and an holy nation." That's the service the elect nation is to provide. Grace and peace.

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