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To: Stubborn; Arguss; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain

***Since Christ did not institute the Sacrament of Baptism until after His ressurection...***


I find this difficult to believe in light of the following passage...

"Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), He left Judea and departed again for Galilee."

-John 4


It is clear from the above that Jesus' disciples were baptizing quite early in his ministry. Now unless you think they were doing this of their own accord, it is fair to assume they were doing it with Jesus blessing.



Also...

If baptism is so critically important in terms of salvation and spiritual new birth, why do we find Paul with such an unconcerned attitude towards it?


"I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

- 1st Cor 1


Spiritual birth must be accomplished without the necessity of baptism for Paul, in the same epistle, to the same readers, claims...


"I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel."

- 1st Cor 4


In other words, through Paul's preaching of the gospel to them something happened that was powerful enough to transfer them into the family of God (i.e. new birth) - and this without then necessity of baptism as seen in the first chapter.


47 posted on 10/11/2004 12:16:46 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Arguss; Stubborn

Paul also said:

1 Cor. 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

NOT TO BAPTIZE, but to preach the gospel. The gospel is what saves, not baptism.

Becky


49 posted on 10/11/2004 12:37:24 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (I have a plan......vote for Bush:)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
As I said, Christ did not make Baptism the requirement till after His ressurection:

Mat: 28:5 And the angel answering, said to the women: Fear not you; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 28:6 He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, and see the place where the Lord was laid.....

......28:18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: "All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

28:19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."

Again, in Mark 16:6 Who saith to them: Be not affrighted; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified: he is risen, he is not here, behold the place where they laid him......

......16:15 And he said to them: "Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

It is this explicit command of Christ that not only instituted the Sacrament of Baptism, but also declared it as being wholly necessary for our salvation.

Prior to this, His command, the old law, i.e. the law of the OT was still the requirement. Now, if you want to debate what happened to people who, not hearing this command, died shortly after this command was given, I would hazzard to guess that if they were just, they made it at least to Purgatory, but I do not know and seriously doubt any one knows exactly how God judged those particular people.

50 posted on 10/11/2004 12:43:52 PM PDT by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Paul was most certainly not downplaying the importance of Baptism, indeed it must have been important enough to him that he baptized the people that he told us of.

""I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. - 1st Cor 1"

What he seems to be saying is that if more people were baptized by him they would be bragging of that fact, since he was so popular, rather than being content to just be baptized.

I liken the statement as the same as if a person were baptized by the Pope. They would go around telling everybody of that fact. Probaby why the Pope doesn't baptize people. Just lke Paul, he has too many other things to do.

Anybody can argue all they want to about the necessity of Baptism. It is clear in the Bible of it's necessity, and you twist the words, or accept the advice of those that do, at your own peril.

64 posted on 10/11/2004 2:44:36 PM PDT by Arguss (Take the narrow road)
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