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To: Stubborn
"Also, note that the only reason we even needed a Redeemer at all is strictly on account of the sin of Adam, i.e. Original Sin."

This is becoming a very interesting discussion. I have observed over the past many years that the Roman Church seems, to an outsider, to place much more emphasis on the Passion and Crucifixion as an atonement for the sins of mankind than the Orthodox East has (this not to say that we don't hold similar views), a sort of quid pro quo, so to speak. Given that the Roman doctrine of Original Sin seems to focus on a sort of inherited guilt rather than inherited consequences this would stand to reason. On the other hand, if what we inherit is a propensity to sin quite on our own, then what the Icon of the Resurrection shows us is that Christ freed the OT saints from the consequences of their own sins, not that of Adam, and that the New Law gives us, through the Faith and the Church a way to overcome, through God's grace, our own nature and our own sins. And if this is true, what does it say about unbaptized babies who die?

Do you suppose that differing views on the nature and consequences of the sin of Adam has anything to do with this?
27 posted on 10/11/2004 7:01:46 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: Kolokotronis
We believe that along with original sin, we are all born with a tendancy toward evil. Baptism erases all sin, but it does not remove our tendancy toward evil. This tendancy or inclination toward evil we call concupiscence.

The saints of the OT who were in Limbo may well have been there not only because they could not get into heaven yet, but also because of there own sins - no one knows. The thing is, is that as long as they made it to Limbo, heaven was a sure thing - just a matter of time.

No one knows for positive what the fate of the unbaptised baby is. All we know for sure is that no one gets into heaven with any trace of sin on their souls. Since we are all conceived and born with sin on our souls and since Baptism is the remedy Christ left us for original sin, conventional reasoning tells us the only way an unbaptised infant can enter heaven if it were to be conceived without sin.

Now, we know that, aside from Our Lord, only Our Lady was conceived without sin. We know that in order to be free from original sin, we must be baptised. If an infant dies before it is baptised, it dies in original sin, only guilty of the sin of Adam. To you and I and probably all people everywhere, that baby is innocent and should go straight to heaven with sin on its soul. But if we hold to that thinking, we will no longer believe Christ's words "Unless a man be born of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

32 posted on 10/11/2004 7:43:21 AM PDT by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
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